比特币站上10万美元，山寨季到了吗？

We haven't really talked that much about altcoins more broadly in a very long time. Now I'm a lot more bullish on altcoins.

Same. Based on the weird products that are now coming out that people are investing in on the public markets, there is clear appetite for real businesses. These things could rerate 3x in the next 3 months.

It has been an eventful week. A lot of stuff is going on in both the TradFi world and the crypto world. We're recording this as Bitcoin has just peaked above $107,000, which is insane because it feels like there's just not that much euphoria in the markets, and Bitcoin's touching all-time highs. Equities are not at their all-time highs, which is another great sign. Honestly, things are just looking good across the board. I'm feeling very confident that we see $120,000 per Bitcoin reasonably soon. What are you thinking, Jonah?

I think so, too. The only thing that worries me is that I'm just looking over here at my Velo dashboard. The only concerning thing is that when I look at Bitcoin funding, it's getting expensive, right? Funding on Deribit is 40%; the funding rate on Hyperliquid, which is where all the degens trade, is 11%. This is not cheap, right? If you want to get levered long Bitcoin, you have to pay up, which means that a lot of people are getting levered long on the highs, never a good sign.

That said, aside from this being a crowded trade—and crowded by whom? Degens? The market's gotten bigger than them now. There's not really a whole lot to worry about. Bitcoin has—we were talking about this before the podcast—you astutely brought up that Bitcoin has decoupled from equities. Equities are languishing a bit; they're 2 red days in a row for the S&P, and Bitcoin is just, not quite God candles, but solid green bars this whole time. I think we're going to push through and trade a lot higher, Avi. I really do.

1. Why Are We Bullish?

I think—okay, let's break it down. I always like to talk about why I'm bullish, what's the reasoning, and then look at the data and see if the data can confirm my view. We're trading at all-time highs. Normally, it's not the best idea to go all in and buy a ton of an asset, especially Bitcoin, when it's trading at the all-time high. Normally, you want to wait for some sort of confirmation, like a break above, and then you chase that.

Now, when I think about why Bitcoin is going up, it's not equities, as we discussed. It's not the fact that equities are ripping; in fact, equities are languishing a bit. So you have to say, "Okay, maybe the broader market's back a little bit, but there's this outperformance from Bitcoin. Where is it coming from?" I think there are 2 areas. One is this PIPE-like capital-markets play. We're seeing a tremendous amount of new issuance in the world of crypto.

There's this Nakamoto thing that just came out that David Bailey is doing. MicroStrategy continues to raise a ton of money. There are all sorts of things, like the SPAC that just came out that Republic is running, which is trying to buy a crypto asset. You're seeing Coinbase start to do very well, even in light of a hack. You're seeing real interest from the big boys come into crypto.

And I don't think that can be understated. We're seeing so much capital-markets activity, which is driven not by crypto degens. This is driven by people who have experience in traditional finance because they're seeing the interest on their side. It's like a bunch of bankers are saying, "Holy crap, all of our clients are asking us about this. Let's come up with as many products as possible." That's a great way to look at the maturation of an industry.

A great way to look at it is: How many different types of products are there? How many different ways can I get exposure to this industry? When you look back at the structured-products boom, in the beginning there were only a few different types of structured products. Then structured products exploded, started getting a ton of interest, and suddenly there was every type of product you could possibly think of under the sun. As this was growing, the entire market was ripping in the structured-products world.

And that's kind of what we're seeing in crypto. We're seeing a massive proliferation of different types of products in the traditional-markets capital-markets space, and that to me indicates a tremendous amount of interest. Why would I fade that? Why would I get in the way and say, "Oh, yeah, the bankers and all the people with access to real money and real capital are thinking to themselves, 'Let me go issue a ton of products'"?

This is very, very different from the expansion of products that we saw in 2021 or even last year, in 2024, when the expansion of products was a bunch of crypto degens launching new shitcoins because they knew a bunch of people wanted to buy crypto, and so they just launched shitcoins. You're preying on a small subset of people. These products are bringing in new people and appealing to them. You want some convertible note that pays 8%, has capped downside, but limits your upside? You have it now, right? Basically, I'm just getting really excited because all these different types of things are coming out, and that's very bullish to me.

I love excited Avi. Excited Avi is the best kind of Avi. But do you buy that thesis that we are now in the Cambrian explosion of different types of crypto products and therefore that's very bullish for Bitcoin?

I think you have the causality backwards, but I completely agree with everything else that you said. Basically, what we used to call this on the trading desk at Goldman, we used to call these investor products, right? Welcome to the investor center, right? These are the sorts of things that you saw during the 2000s, when there was a commodity supercycle going on.

Why? Because China was lifting 1 billion people out of poverty, and over the course of doing that, they needed to buy a lot of copper and a lot of steel. They needed to make a lot of roads with asphalt, which crude oil is an input for. They needed to buy gold and silver and all the things that go into basically constructing—taking 1 billion people out of shacks made out of mud and putting them into modern homes and offices and transportation vehicles.

A supercycle is always demand-driven. People often get this wrong. Sometimes there's a supply shock, like what happened in 2022 in Ukraine with certain commodities like wheat and oil, and they say, "Oh, there's a supercycle going on." It's like, nope, that's a supply shock. When supply drops, that's not a supercycle. Never is. Supercycles are driven by demand, by structural demand.

And so I think there is a supercycle going on, and that structural demand is manifesting itself not just in demand for IBIT and spot BTC, but also for other forms of more complex exposure that institutions want to bet on in order to outperform IBIT and spot BTC. I think it's the supercycle—the demand-driven supercycle—driving the Cambrian explosion for investor products like the ones you just described.

Yeah, I don't disagree. Maybe I didn't articulate it correctly. What I was saying is that the Cambrian explosion of different types of products is indicative. It's telling you that there's all this latent demand.

Yes, yes. That's absolutely what I'm trying to say. It's not, in and of itself, that because there are a bunch of products launched, then Bitcoin will go up. It's that all these people are now rushing to throw out products. There must be incredible demand that we're not seeing because we're not privy to these conversations.

The banks are getting called every day, asking about crypto, and so now they're launching these products. I'm saying it's a tell, right? It's a giveaway.

No, you and I completely agree. I think I just misunderstood your phrasing. Basically, these products are a manifestation of existing demand growth, and I couldn't agree more.

The key here is, as traders, you always have to go, "Is that priced in? Did we—have all the products been launched now, and has that demand been met?" What I'm trying to articulate is that no, we're in the beginning, hence the Cambrian explosion phrasing. We're in the beginning of this dynamic, which is very, very good for Bitcoin.

So you have that, which I think is both bullish on a 1-month, but also bullish on a 6-month and 12-month horizon, which I think is a rare—it's a rare thing. And then you have the other reason, just to go back to the original: equities are stalling and Bitcoin's going up.

And I think this has to do with the budget that's being pushed through Congress right now. Basically, there's now no longer any semblance of fiscal sanity in our government. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats have any desire to pass fiscally sane bills.

You saw the Republicans try to hold up the bill by saying, “This is crazy. The hardliners—oh no, we need cuts to pay for this.” They tried to hold up the bill, and they got steamrolled. Nobody—there's just no appetite for any indication of fiscal sanity.

Would you say you're so bullish?

Very bullish.

So bullish you can't see straight.

Well, hold on. Let me finish my rant, my last piece. We have all the qualitative stuff. The qualitative stuff is everything that we just discussed, and then the quantitative is a little nerve-racking. I'm a little nervous short term, right?

If you look over the last 3 days, 25,000 Bitcoin has been added to open interest across all futures contracts. That's $3 billion. It's not just Bitcoin, dude.

So many people are getting levered long right now.

Yeah. Every coin where there's leverage, people are getting levered up. It makes me nervous short term.

What I'm hoping happens is maybe we get a nice little flush. Maybe you get a 10% liquidation wick, you touch $97K, and then you go back up. I'm not advocating in any way that you go all in here, but I will advocate that if we drop 5%, you're supposed to be buying again, right?

2. Ads (Kraken OTC, WalletConnect)

Maybe, if you're a trader, you're selling 15% or 20% of your stack here and trying to rebuy 5% or 10% lower to reduce your cost basis. You can't ignore that there is exuberance in the futures markets right now.

3. Money Printer Goes Brrr

I don't think you sell anything right now. It feels like you never think you sell anything.

You never—not once have you ever said, “You know, I think...” Anyway, we started the podcast in December 2022, and it has been a pretty nice upward trek since that moment in time, with a lot of downs in the meantime. But, yeah, catch the waves. It's been a big wave to ride.

I think this is kind of the moment where you don't sell, hoping for $97K.

I respectfully disagree, even though this is not my forte. I think this is the moment where, if you're fully invested, you just hang on. You do not apply leverage here, just based on what the funding charts are telling you.

But if you know, maybe this is the point in the cycle where you lie to your grandma and tell her you need a little bit of help to buy a car, take her $10,000, stick it on Kraken, and wait for that $97K pullback, if it happens.

That is way too specific. Have you done this?

No. That's a very specific anecdote, Jonah.

No, I've never, for the record. I read all these articles, by the way.

Speaking of Coinbase, you've never taken your grandmother's money and stuck it into crypto?

Crypto didn't exist when I took my grandmother's money, and I absolutely took it. I took it with both hands.

But, yeah, I think this is kind of the time where, if you have some liquidity, you're either buying here or keeping dry powder ready, like in the gun, ready to pull the trigger if you get a pullback.

Oh, and side note: I read in The Wall Street Journal that a lot of crypto people are getting held for ransom. The Coinbase hack exposed a lot of people's balances and addresses.

Be your own bank is great until the bank robbers show up, as they say. For the record, I'm broke. I need to borrow money from my grandma to trade crypto, so don't come after me.

Back to the topic at hand, though. What I think is relevant here—I put this out in a tweet as well—is that when I was explaining on this podcast to people that I thought Donald Trump would be exceptionally bullish BTC, I think the most intelligent counterargument I got pushed back on was, “Hey, this guy's all about reducing government spending. He's talking about shrinking the government. How could you possibly be bullish on Bitcoin, which is basically just an expression of M2 money supply growth, in an environment where the opposite of stimulus is about to happen?”

DOGE is going to slash entire departments. There's going to be less reckless spending. The Department of Defense is going to cut expenses by 8% per year.

And my response to that argument was: This is all talk, right? It's actually not going to happen. They're just going to try, markets are going to puke, then they're going to basically flail and capitulate, and then we're going to go back to the world of borrow, spend, print, and BTC will pump.

The reason why I've been saying that over and over is because I believe that no politician in the world today, not even Donald Trump, has the mandate or the balls to send the economy into a recession. We talked about this: Donald Trump wants his face on Mount Rushmore. So as soon as the market hits danger-zone mode, you can bet on a V-shaped recovery, and both you and I did. We've been very public about it.

That is exactly what's going on here, and this spending bill is a perfect example. When did anybody ever think that suddenly a group of congressmen whose incentive structure is basically, “Get pork-barrel spending allocated to your district or lose your job”—that's their incentive structure—in what reality would they ever stop doing that?

They can talk on national television about discipline, but when it comes to their votes, they're never going to vote against more money, more federal funding, or more federal handouts. So the budget is just going to continue to unravel until either the incentive structure is changed or we get some kind of massive political overhaul in America. That's kind of hard to imagine. Bitcoin is really your only hedge.

Just to finish this rant, basically, the longer BTC outperforms stocks, the more that phenomenon becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Why? Because investors are desperate for decorrelated places to park capital.

Bitcoin hasn't really been on anyone's radar institutionally speaking until, let's say, the last year. But really, it wasn't investable until Trump got elected because of the previous SEC, right? So it's only really been investable for 5 months, which is like a nanosecond in terms of institutional time frames.

I think the longer this outperformance goes on as a result of what we're seeing in Washington, the more intelligent macro investors and passive money will start to view Bitcoin as a hedge against the scenario where the government overspends, we end up in a stimulus vortex again, the printing press goes brrr, the dollar gets devalued, and fixed income goes to shit.

Everybody—even the world's largest fixed-income funds—needs a hedge against that, and Bitcoin may be that hedge.

100%. I 100% agree with you. Hopefully this narrative picks up. We can do our best to spread it, but it is also a little bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? It's like, as you said, the more that it happens, the more real it becomes.

Funny. It's just a virtuous cycle that way. So hopefully what's happening is that while we're ramming through massive spending in Congress, Michael Saylor is out there emptying his clips, making sure that Bitcoin is outperforming equities.

That would be a very good use of capital, Michael. If anyone knows him, send him this podcast and let him know that we think it's a really good idea to be buying right now. You can also help out the levered guys that got ridiculously levered long into this move.

It feels like everybody got levered long at around $100K to $102K. I didn't know—there have been select alts that have done very well. Can we pat ourselves on the back a little bit because SYRUP, the token that we kept talking about as, “Hey, this thing's up 50% since last week,” is just ripping?

Don't ever say that we don't give you alpha. This thing is absolutely charting. I mean, Pendle is doing well, but not as well as SYRUP, and SYRUP was the one that we both said had a ridiculous price-to-earnings ratio relative to the rest of the market. So I'm very bullish. XMR is also doing very well. Crime is paying; Trumpcoin is trading nicely. We love our little Trumpcoin. Trump's doing well. Crime is paying. There are going to be a lot of MSTRs for Trumpcoin soon, I assume.

Yes. I have found—I know this is going to sound silly, but this is a genuine heuristic that I use to trade and look at assets in general. When somebody is absolutely smugly proclaiming the death or decline of any particular asset, or just boldly, with full confidence, talking about how it's gone down and it's going to go lower, that is normally a phenomenal sign to go buy. Most recently, this happened with Tesla, where Tim Walz gets up there and goes, “You know, when I need a little boost, I look at Tesla on my phone. It's $225 and going lower.”

Jonah, I want you to take a second. Can you guess what the dead low of Tesla was? Don't look at the chart. What was the absolute dead low on Tesla?

$200.

He said $224 or $225 or something.

Wait, did it go down to $200 after that?

It went down to $214. It went down $10.

Wow.

You know where it's trading now? If you said $344, you would be correct. Good thing Tim Walz is not in charge of anyone's money. Thank the Lord. It's just such a good heuristic when people grave-dance. You've got to get back in.

4. Gold vs BTC

And by the way, that's why I'm actually reallocating to gold a little bit here. I sold some equities and bought gold. I've been rebalancing my portfolio a lot recently. But gold had that massive sell-off, down from $3,500 almost to $3,000, and people were like, “All right, that's it. It's over. It's peaked. The gold bull run is done.”

So I started scaling back in over the last few days because I do think gold also benefits from this. I know what you're going to say, which is just buy Bitcoin, but I like a little diversity.

No, I think you're right. Gold absolutely outperforms Bitcoin when there's a global macro freakout, and I think we could get one. I think Israel is probably going to bomb Iran, and its defense minister has already threatened to shut the Strait of Hormuz. That's a stocks-down-30% kind of event if the strait gets shut down.

Do you genuinely think that? I mean, there was a leak today that Israel was considering bombing Iranian sites, and that leak came from the US government. So it's pretty clear to me that the US government is at least trying to stop it. There was a follow-on report that the US is preparing intelligence just in case Israel does strike, to aid Israeli strikes.

Now, Israel has bombed Iranian nuclear sites before, and it has not led to war. Iran doesn't want war. Iran cannot survive a war with Israel. They have no air-defense systems. Russia, their partner that develops military tech, is completely tied up and absolutely cannot afford to give Iran any defense systems right now. Israel probably has free rein over their airspace, obviously. Israel is a tiny country of 10 million people, and Iran, I think, has 80.

What is the population of Iran? About 80, if I remember correctly. 90 million, but whatever. There's no invasion that's going to happen. There's no boots-on-the-ground situation that's going to happen, but bombing of sites? Yeah, for sure.

In the past, when Israel has bombed Iranian sites, it was like they took out that white-bearded nuclear scientist with some robot machine gun, which I thought was pretty crazy. They raided that warehouse back in 2017 or 2018 and stole all their CD-ROMs filled with nuclear secrets. That was also pretty cool.

But this time, I think they're talking about doing a whole midair-refueled raid on Fordow, taking out something that's 100 meters underneath a mountain, as well as Natanz and a couple of other sites. If they literally just dismantled Iran's entire nuclear program and set them back 50 years, that's another level, right? The risk is there.

So while we're sitting here foaming at the mouth, bullish over thinking of bullish outcomes, I'm trying, in the spirit of scenario analysis, to come up with a known unknown that could potentially take markets lower. If Iran got seriously neutered there, they might do what animals do when they're backed into a corner, which is lash out. They haven't in the past because they haven't had any reason to. This time, they might. I'm not sure.

Okay. But let's genuinely think about this, right? Israel's goal is to—and we can get back to crypto and the markets in a second, but I do think this is interesting and relevant—what? It wants to take out Iranian nuclear sites for the production of a weapon. If they do attack, they're very likely only bombing uranium mines, their research reactor, one of their enrichment plants, or their hidden stuff. That is not critical infrastructure.

Iran currently generates a big fat 0% of its power from nuclear energy. If Israel bombs these sites, it does absolutely nothing to hurt Iran other than destroy its investment in building a nuclear bomb. Either Iran can come out and say, “You destroyed our efforts to build a nuclear bomb,” which they've consistently said they're absolutely not doing, or Israel has just bombed a few things that aren't really important. From Iran's public perspective, it's like, “We're not—we're just trying to enrich uranium. We're just trying to build nuclear plants.”

If Israel takes them out, it does negligible damage to Iran. It genuinely does not matter for the Iranian economy or anything other than their pride. So it's kind of hard for me to imagine them mounting a true all-out war response, because Israel isn't threatening them directly.

If Israel goes a step further and attacks infrastructure that's critical for Iran—if they bomb a power plant or do something which I think would be horrifically misguided, like try to incite a revolution in Iran because they're bombing a bunch of sites and trying to disrupt your average Iranian's day-to-day—that would lead to war. I view that as very unlikely. I view this as a diplomatic incident, because Iran can't—what are they going to do? Respond by saying, “Yeah, you blew up our nuclear weapons program.” I mean, what weapons?

Yeah, it's a fair point. I think you're right. The oil market is certainly not behaving like this is a real risk. The way you frame it, the oil market is up, but for different reasons, right?

It's up because of a couple of things. There are some unexpected inventory draws, so I think that surprised participants, and I think the market was—CTAs in particular—caught a little bit short on the lows. It's corrected up 10%, which is not a huge move. It's a nice little snapback to what ultimately is the middle of a very tight, boring, uneventful range. If there were a real threat of Iran shutting the Strait of Hormuz, it would be pushing toward $100 in no time.

It’s just not. So I think your take is probably the rational take of our 2 scenarios that we just put on the table here. I’m literally not saying I believe that Israel is going to create a scenario that results in Iran shutting the Strait of Hormuz and choking off 30% of the world’s oil. I’m more just trying to war-game a scenario where something as unexpected and ridiculous as Liberation Day just nukes our crypto and our stocks.

In that scenario, gold would probably perform and Bitcoin probably wouldn’t. So, I do agree with your attempt at diversification into gold. They’ll both rip in a stimulus scenario. Bitcoin will rip more, but in a macro freakout, gold will outperform everything else by a long shot. In that, I’m super confident.

5. Is Alt Season Here?

I think, ultimately, you mentioned one thing about Iran there. Before we close the book on it, you mentioned their pride. I don’t think that’s to be underestimated. These guys are real hardliners. I wonder out loud if they could get embarrassed like that and then just say, “Oh, whatever. There’s just some craters. It’s cool. No problem.”

My main view on this is it’s a non-event.

Yeah. I hope you know I’m also obviously a little biased; nobody wants this to become real.

But I don’t think it’s an event that you have to pay extreme attention to if you’re trading this market right now. It just doesn’t make a ton of sense. I mean, I think your time is much better spent looking for the Syrup and Pendle of the world.

I got a new Syrup. And by the way, what did I say about Worldcoin? Did I not say you should always short it every time it goes up 20% to 30%? I think I mentioned specifically $1.25 to $1.30. And guess what? It did that, and it was a great short again. Yet again, it’s like, guys, this thing is not going like the world, guys. Worldcoin is not going up.

Even ETH is off the highs. Short it. Short it every time it goes up 20% to 30%. Make money.

People were—you’re just grave-dancing, Avi.

People were coming at us on Twitter, being like, “No, everybody’s going to scan their eyeballs. It’s a play on OpenAI doing something with eyeballs.” And, you know, actually, that is not a stupid take. It is possible that Sam Altman attempts to pull an Elon and merge his 2 empires, or merge 2 of his empires, into a scenario where you have to scan your eyeballs in order to use coins like this.

It’s not an empire for him. It’s a thing that might exist in the future, might not. He was just like, “Yeah, maybe have a little bit of fun with this.” The guy’s way too busy programming the Terminator to be doing anything.

But speaking of AI coins that aren’t absolute shit, Grass has been doing well. I’ll put out an open letter to the community: I’m still trying to figure out what Grass’s real revenues are. People don’t publish them. They probably suck.

No, if the revenues were good, they would be public about it, like Hyperliquid or—I guess it’s all on-chain—but when something is going well, you talk about it. When something’s going poorly and people have invested in you at a multibillion-dollar valuation, you don’t talk about the bad stuff. That’s what’s going on.

I’m skeptical of Grass. It’s a great idea that raised at a huge valuation. I think fuck all’s going on, and the price chart’s not that cool. It just looks like levered Bitcoin—basically like 1.5x-levered Bitcoin with 100x the risk.

The Grass founder cited mid-8-figure revenue. I don’t know. That would be pretty sweet. I mean, the founder did say that, but he might just be lying. I did talk to the team, and I generally like them.

By the way, I don’t own any substantial portion of Grass. I think I own less than $50,000 of this thing in total. I think I have maybe $45,000 or something like that, which is not a substantial amount of money, because I do not have clear data on it yet. I just don’t know what’s true and what’s not.

But on the surface, that’s why I’m bringing it up on this podcast. I’m hopeful somebody else out there can tell us.

Why now and not earlier? Just because the founder came out and said something bullish, or is there—

No, no. This was a while ago. I’ve talked about Grass.

I think you said that at the end of March.

No, we’ve talked about Grass a few times on the podcast and how it has a lot of potential, but why would now be the time to buy Grass after it seems to have languished in a sideways range?

It’s gone sideways. It’s consolidated.

Exactly. It’s consolidated. If you look at the weekly, it’s just broken out of a horizontal—or, sorry, out of a diagonal downtrend. It’s kind of in that vein of, okay, money’s—people are really looking at crypto again. You’re seeing revenue-generating protocols do very well, like Hype and Syrup, and it kind of fits that mold.

Why am I talking about Grass again? Well, kind of because we haven’t really talked that much about altcoins more broadly in a very long time. And now I’m a lot more bullish on altcoins.

Same.

Because I think that also, based on the weird products that are now coming out that people are investing in on the public markets, there is clear appetite for revenue-generating products—for real businesses, is the way that I should say it.

So I think we’re heading into a point where these things start to move very quickly. These things could rerate like 3x in the next 3 months. I think I’ve got a tenbagger here. That’s the environment that I think we’re in right now.

Yeah. I think it’s alt season again. Even if it’s a short-lived one, we’re in alt season. The one I’m looking at is Launchcoin. I don’t know if you’ve been paying attention to it, but basically, they just launched their platform like a week ago.

The FDV is like $270 million, but basically, think of it as a platform like a Pump.fun-type launchpad where you can publish statistics about what you’re launching and get crypto VCs to get involved. It does all the paperwork for you, and it’s basically kind of like a Kickstarter for crypto—a more institutional launchpad than Pump.fun.

Supposedly, users—token holders—are going to get the benefits of it, unlike Pump.fun, where all the money goes to the founders. Launchcoin did, over the last week, earn $15 million in fees and $3.25 million in revenue.

What the hell? Really? This thing—I have not been paying attention at all. This one came onto my radar earlier today, and I’ve started studying it. It’s number 12 if you rank—if you go on DeFiLlama and just sort by revenue. It’s number 12.

Tether and Circle are 1 and 2. Axiom is number 3. Hyperliquid is number 4. Then Pump.fun is number 5.

Can you explain where this thing came from?

Basically, they launched a few months ago with the promise of building a Pump.fun that allows for a more institutional experience, a more formal way to invest in early-stage crypto, a way to crowdfund things, and launch projects with participation from other entities other than just the project devs.

Then, last week, they actually launched their platform, and the token went from $20 million FDV to $270 million because not only is the platform super slick and an incredible user experience—better than Pump.fun—but the revenues are actually substantial.

Excluding the first few days, they were earning like $4 million to $5 million a day in fees just from Hype, I think. Then things stabilized, and now it’s earning—it’s kind of stabilizing around $500,000 to $1 million a day in fees.

The price-to-earnings ratio is like 4 at these levels. Obviously, you can’t annualize a few days’ worth of revenue data, but basically, the risk went down by 99%, in my opinion, when they launched this thing. It’s not a rug.

The user experience is good. People are using this, and it’s just rocketed on my favorite dashboard, which is the DeFiLlama revenue indicator. I like to sort by that to see what’s earning money, because we’re in the phase of the cycle where real businesses will perform.

To me, I think this is one of the ones that could just melt higher. Not financial advice. This statement may age very poorly, obviously, but given that we’re entering alt season again, I’m looking for these types of investments. Basically, anything below $1 billion that has a good narrative and makes money feels like it’s worth a YOLO at this point.

6. The 1000x Terminal

Worth a YOLO. I think that encapsulates a lot of the crypto market right now.

Yeah, I mean, Virtuals is a launchpad. VIRTUAL traded up to a few billion. Why not this one, you know? This one actually seems to have a more interesting use case than a no-code AI-agent launchpad for agents that suck, right?

It's true. Very, very true. I'm looking at Virtuals right now. Virtuals feels like they're doing a Friend.tech. There's an airdrop, then there's points, then there's some other initiative to keep people.

I like them because I helped us launch a 1000x token, which is looking pretty fucking good right now, to be honest. Yeehaw.

You put in a lot of work.

We put in a lot of work, and so I'm very excited for that, to be honest.

Me too.

We want it to be the place where you don't have to leave to talk about crypto. I don't understand why financial interfaces aren't more like this. You certainly can't do it inside of an LLM like Grok or ChatGPT. The voices are wrong. Those voices are too general—the AI voices that respond to you in those terminals. When you talk about crypto, you want to talk to a trader.

Yeah, it's true. So, I mean, I think one of the pain points that I had as a Bloomberg user for a bit is that it was actually kind of hard—you have to know what you're looking for. There's actually a very steep learning curve to Bloomberg.

Unfortunately, this is true. You can't switch very easily. If you're suddenly an equities trader, you've been an equities trader for 15 years, and that's all you've focused on, and one day you want to explore the world of commodities on Bloomberg, those 15 years using Bloomberg for equities don't really help you that much.

Obviously, they help, but they don't help you that much. You still have to find the shit that you're looking for and sift through stuff. So, hopefully, this is going to be a lot better user experience.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the great thing about Bloomberg is that it's just this spectacularly incomprehensibly enormous repository of data, which is useful in markets where data is hard to collate. Commodities is what I spent 2 decades using Bloomberg for, and equities people get really in the weeds with their little screeners and their messages and their network and stuff. But crypto on Bloomberg is horrendous. I think they've got, what, 10 tokens on there or something?

Totally horrendous. I mean, I think they have like 20, and it's DOT and XRP. Avalanche—fuck, kill me. Monero's on there.

Exactly. Fucking kill me, dude.

Monero. I'm so bullish on Monero. You do not understand. I've been talking about Monero for ages, and I feel like I'm going crazy. Nobody believes me, or nobody looks at it, and nobody even talks about it. But Monero is a—

People who believe you don't talk, Avi. They're criminals. They're sitting there silently listening to 1000x.

It's a freaking $6.4 billion private Swiss bank in your pocket. I mean, this thing is worth, at minimum, $20 billion. That's just my personal take: it's worth a minimum of $20 billion, especially because Bitcoin is so—Monero is now like what Bitcoin was intentionally meant to be. Monero is what Bitcoin was meant to be.

Now bullish Avi is out of his cage. Let him out, anyway.

Oh, I love it. I'm giga-giga-giga bullish on Monero. This is incredible. I do own a decent amount. Unfortunately, bullish Avi has to call it a day, Jonah.

Ah, it was great talking to you, Avi. I don't know what bullishness you're going to unleash on New York City tonight, but I hope it's riotous.

It will be riotous. Yeah, I'm—I've been going through a crazy time recently. Things are finally starting to look up. I'm feeling very good, very happy. So, let's go and leave some bullishness.

Mazel tov, glad to hear it, man. Great talking to you as always, and see you in a week. Actually, see you this weekend.

All right. Yeah, see you this weekend. See you this weekend. Take care. Later.