LSTM：卷土重来？[Sepp Hochreiter 教授]

We need a new direction. Large language models are not our way to advance AI. Language models are, for me, a database technology. They are not artificial intelligence. You grab all human knowledge in text, perhaps also in code or whatever, and store it. Currently, their reasoning is not real reasoning; it is repeating reasoning—things or code that have already been seen. Our path ends with scaling up: you put more training data in to make it larger, but not smarter. The systems are not different, so we are only larger.

Something is missing. You and Jürgen are pioneers of connectionism in a way, and you have always been neurosymbolic guys. Why is that, Sepp? It is an honor to have you on MLST. Thank you so much for joining us today.

It is an honor for me that you have me.

Oh, do not be silly. The thing that is amazing about language models and deep learning in general is that they capture a lot of subtle intuitions, cultural information, creativity, and so on. They are really good for generating programs.

The thing is, if we want to do abstraction, we need to have programs. But where do the programs come from? If we build systems that can create and acquire abstractions, we need to build systems that can write their own programs. It does not seem possible just to do discrete program search because it is too difficult.

1. LLMs Are Database Technology

My view on large language models is that a large language model is, for me, a database technology. It has artificial aspects, but it is more or less a database technology. You grab all human knowledge in text, perhaps also in code or whatever, and store it. You generalize it, combine it—you know, if there is a Tuesday, I can replace it with Wednesday because these are days of the week. Names and numbers can also be generalized, but these are things that already exist.

The question is: Do we need new code? Is every piece of code already written somewhere, and do you only have to pull it together or combine it? If you really should come up with new code, a new idea, or a new concept, large language models can only pull out existing code they have been trained on. It is just not possible for them, because they were not trained for it, to produce something new.

Their reasoning capabilities are very limited, but they are very powerful because AI needs a knowledge representation. Right now, there is a problem with hallucination. How do you pull out the knowledge, also with inference? Perhaps the knowledge is already in the system, but how do I get it out? It is a database where I do not know how to access the information.

We need a new direction. Large language models are not our way to advance AI in the long term. They are a good database technology and a good knowledge-representation technology. They are important for AI, but we have to find new ways.

Could I challenge that a tiny bit? I completely agree that vanilla LLMs are approximate retrieval engines. Even then, they are not quite databases because they have this interpolative property. Systems like o1 are approximate reasoning engines. They are doing test-time compute and searching through many combinations.

Even though an LLM is a finite-state automaton with a fixed amount of compute for a single forward pass, it can generate code, and the code contains all of these fundamental basis primitives that can be composed together. You can do this test-time search and compose programs together. In a sense, you can search Turing space indirectly by searching through the space of programs.

Are you saying that methods like o1 are the road to nowhere and that we need something completely different, or could we just tweak things a little bit?

You can tweak it, and you will go very far because you have the program space. That is very nice. There are so many programs and so many combinations of programs that give you a new program.

If you think about Kolmogorov complexity, it is the length and complexity of programs. Programs with a simple Kolmogorov complexity are already stored or can be combined. But if you have to find a program that needs completely new concepts and cannot be combined out of existing programs, I do not think it can do it. It can only combine things it has already seen.

Large language models learn from code, but they cannot come up with completely new code concepts. Perhaps those concepts do not exist. If you say everything in code has already been invented and we only have to combine it, then there is nothing new. But if there is something new to invent, I do not think large language models can advance us.

Let me push gently on that. I think this is a discussion about creativity and also epistemic foraging—creating new knowledge to explore. Reasoning is largely about programs, but you do have some logic if you do this very complex logic and your program is working.

If we say reasoning is knowledge acquisition, and we need systems to come up with new abstractions, and if we agree that those abstractions can be combinatorially deduced from abstractions that are already in the system, then we have combinatorial closure. Those abstractions do exist. Creating them is more a matter of understanding how to find a good abstraction using an algorithm.

I think what we humans have is not only that we draw our ideas from coding, but that we understand the world and have all this world knowledge. From coding alone, you are limited. I think we have much greater reasoning capabilities outside of doing only programs, but I agree that you can go very far with programs.

If it is a program where you need a lot of reasoning and a lot of logic to go to the next step, then the next step, then the next step, and it was not in your training database, I do not think the current large language model can do it. Right now, I do not believe that they really understand reasoning.

They imitate reasoning and reproduce reasoning. They have already seen the concepts, but I do not know whether they understand them. There are many examples where you change something a little bit and then it goes wrong.

Can you explain the difference between the kind of reasoning we do—strong reasoning, perhaps—and the kind of reasoning that we can do in current AI?

2. Reasoning Is Not Yet Real

In current AI, the reasoning is not real reasoning. It is repeating reasoning—things or code that have already been seen in the input data—and combining them, also replacing some variables.

The reasoning we do involves concepts such as contradiction and induction. We learned all these things in school or during our studies, and it was hard to learn them. Now we have reasoning concepts: how we can do things, how we structure them, and how we show that something is true or not true.

For all these formal systems, you have to have formal rules. In theory, LLMs might learn some formal rules, and then they can do reasoning in a very specific domain. They can produce new things because they only apply the rules. If the rules are in the training data, they can apply them to new things.

In this reasoning system, they probably can reason. But if you go to another system or another domain, they lose their reasoning capabilities.

One quick point on that: Would you consider Move 37 in AlphaGo reasoning? In AlphaGo, the Google Go-playing algorithm creatively discovered this amazing move.

It was a move, yes. It created new knowledge. But there was a subsymbolic part. It was Monte Carlo tree search, which is a classical AI concept. At the end, you have the value functions and so on.

It discovered the move by checking things and evaluating them. It was a combination of understanding the game and computing a lot of moves into the future with Monte Carlo tree search.

You could still say that it was an approximate value function. There were no formal guarantees or anything.

Exactly, that is true.

I completely agree that LLMs on their own are approximate retrieval engines. But we can build systems with formal verifiers. We can have neurosymbolic systems; we can use Lean, for example. We can build these systems. With systems like that, can we do reasoning?

In principle, it should be possible, but I am not sure. I think the reasoning is limited to the domain you see in the training data.

There are different formal systems and different formal logics. You can learn one logic if you see enough of its rules. You know what to do with variables, what you can change, and how you can produce something. I think you can train an LLM for one logic system to produce new logic.

But you learn the syntax; you do not learn the semantics. If you want to prove something, then you have to have different steps toward the proof. I think this is where I would struggle. I would learn to do the formal things—the syntax. I have a sentence or a correct formula, and I produce another correct formula by applying rules it has learned and seen. It can do that, but it is not goal-directed step by step.

They are still not perfect. In many cases, they are not as good as humans.

It is interesting. I agree that knowledge is created in service of a goal, and there is a creative component to reasoning. We can build systems that can dream and generate data, and we can bootstrap that. Some of it can come from the users of a system.

It feels like we can build systems that can reason, but perhaps they would not have something that we have. Maybe we have something extra.

I would bet on that. Why should you learn to reason? Why not use a reasoning system? Why not call a subprogram and ask, “Can you prove this?” Or use a theorem prover, Mathematica, or something like that.

You can learn it, perhaps, and that is also okay. But I do not see the necessity, because we also use tools. Why should future AI systems not use tools for everything—for mathematics, for looking up knowledge, and things like that?

For me, it is stupid to push everything into one system, because we do not do that either. We know how to use our tools. Somehow, I feel that is a better solution.

What has happened in the last 2 years since we spoke?

A lot of things happened. For example, I founded a company, NXAI. It is dedicated to industrial AI. Also, xLSTM happened—this revival of the LSTM method, which now should compete with Transformer technology.

We are going to get on to that. Before we do, it would be good to go on an intellectual journey through the history of LSTMs.

Just before we get there, we have not really spoken about some broader things. What was it like working with Jürgen?

Jürgen is a very special person. He is very inspiring. I can tell you one story from the Technical University of Munich, where we were both there.

There was a seminar with 3 people. One person tried to get all the students into multi-agent systems, another was working on spatial cognition, and Jürgen was working on neural networks. Jürgen came and said, “I am not prepared. I do not know what to do.”

Out of 50 students, everyone selected his topic. You see, he can convince people.

It was fun. I was sitting there doing programming, and Jürgen was doing his art—he made circles, and out of the circles, women appeared. He did a lot of things. He once told me that it was not clear to him whether he would go into art or science, but it was always fun with him and always inspiring.

You worked under Jürgen, and you are both pioneers in the realm of artificial intelligence. It is insane. What gave you the intuition, all those years ago, that you were working on the right things?

You mean LSTM, which stands for long short-term memory?

3. The Birth of LSTM

Jürgen introduced me to neural networks, in particular recurrent neural networks. But they did not work. In my diploma thesis, he was my supervisor, and he gave me a task. It was called a truncation system, where you have a sequence and everything that you can predict can be removed from the sequence because it is predictable anyway. You shorten the sequence and can learn it. That was the idea of the truncation system.

This was a sort of solution because recurrent neural networks were not working. Then 2 things happened. First, I built a neural network where only 1 weight had to be adjusted, as a way to store a piece of information that you needed at the end of a sequence. The network could not do this.

I did all my printfs and all my coding on the screen. Numbers flowed over the screen, and then I saw these super-small numbers. These were the gradients. There was no weight update; the gradients were not there.

This was the discovery of the vanishing gradient: If you have a target and want to know what is needed to predict that target, you do credit assignment through the sequence, but at the beginning of the sequence you get no signal. The gradient vanishes.

Now I knew that recurrent networks did not work, and the solution was LSTM, or long short-term memory. I built a memory cell that made sure that, as the gradients were propagated back, they did not scale down but remained the same. At the beginning of the sequence, there was exactly the same gradient as at the end of the sequence. There was no vanishing gradient anymore.

This was the memory-cell architecture, which is the core of LSTM. I discovered LSTM and wrote it up in my diploma thesis. Later, Jürgen came back and asked me, “You did something in your diploma thesis. Should we publish it?” Then we published it.

It has been one of the most cited papers in the history of deep learning and a very, very impactful paper. Reflecting back on it, what do you think the long-term impact of LSTM has been?

I think it is still used. In my keynote, I gave 1 example from this year: predicting floods. LSTM is a major model in the Google app, and it is also used for predicting floods by the US government and the Canadian government.

For this task, LSTM works better than everything else—better than Transformers and so on. OpenAI built a big LSTM network as an agent. DeepMind used a big LSTM network with StarCraft; AlphaStar was a big LSTM network.

LSTM became the major technology in language up to 2017. Everybody used LSTM, together with attention. Attention was used together with LSTM, and then the paper “Attention Is All You Need” came out, meaning that you only need attention and do not need LSTM anymore. That was where the Transformer was born, and the new technology took over language.

LSTMs still performed well in time-series prediction, reinforcement-learning agents, and so forth, but Transformers were stronger, especially in language. At that time, Transformers took everything over because they were better parallelizable. You could throw more data at the model and train on more data, so they were faster. LSTMs could not compete at that time.

How did the LSTM solve the trade-off between storing new data and protecting data that was already stored?

That is a very interesting question, and it is also the strength of the new xLSTM. The key idea is gating. We have different gates, and perhaps the most important one is the input gate. It scales new incoming information up or down. It can be scaled down to 0, so it is not stored, or it can be set to 1, so everything is stored.

The input gate is something like an early attention mechanism. You have a time series, and you want to choose which sequence elements you pay attention to. The input gate does that. Then there is a forget gate. The forget gate asks whether the memory that is already stored is important or whether it should be downscaled.

The input gate is especially important because it picks out specific sequence elements to store, so irrelevant material is not stored. It was one of the first attention mechanisms, but we called it gating.

Before we get to xLSTM, you have this amazing new invention, which solves many of the problems that the original LSTM had. Could you tell me about the computational complexity of an LSTM compared with an RNN? How did it compare?

An LSTM is an RNN. A vanilla RNN is an RNN without all of the gating, and the complexity is only increased by the gating mechanism. It is still linear in time.

Perhaps it is better to compare it with attention. If you have a new query, a new piece of information, attention has to look back at all previous items. LSTM only interacts with the memory containing everything already stored, so for 1 query it has a constant interaction with the memory.

Attention has to go through all the keys and perform all these pairwise interactions. There are 2 disadvantages. The first is computational: It is quadratic in the context length. The second is that you only have pairwise interactions. You do a dot product and then an exponential of the dot product, which is the softmax, but you only have pairwise comparisons.

It could be better if more sequence elements were pulled together and a new element interacted with an abstraction of these different tokens. The Transformer has the disadvantage of quadratic computational complexity, plus very simple interactions.

LSTM is like a recurrent network. All recurrent networks are linear in the sequence length, or linear in the context length. LSTM is a little more complex because it has the gating mechanism, but it is by far not as complex as a Transformer with its quadratic complexity.

Could you explain to the audience why something quadratic, which should be worse, actually ran faster?

It ran faster because of the implementation on the GPU—graphics processing units. Everything was implemented on these chips. We had things like FlashAttention, which is a very fast attention mechanism, and hardware optimization.

The other thing is that you can do it in parallel. A query looks back at all the keys, but it can look back at all the keys at the same time. You can do everything in parallel. Assume you have a sequence—a sentence—and all the words are pushed up 1 layer simultaneously, while a recurrent network or LSTM has to go through it sequentially.

The first element builds up a new memory, then the next element builds up a new memory. Attention can push everything up in parallel. At that time, attention was much faster than LSTM because of this parallelism. The second thing was that you could optimize it for the GPU and the hardware.

These 2 things—parallelization and hardware optimization—gave attention a big advantage. You could train on much more data in the same amount of time, and LSTM could not compete with the technique.

You mentioned FlashAttention as well. Can you quickly explain that to the audience? Does it mean that, in certain circumstances, you do not actually need to do the full quadratic attention?

It is still quadratic, but it is highly optimized. You use fast memory access in the GPU. You even use registers, which are very fast memory entities in the GPU.

It still has the same complexity, because mathematically it is quadratic and you cannot cheat mathematics. But you can do it extremely fast. FlashAttention was very fast because it was hardware-optimized.

Wonderful. Can you bring in xLSTM, this new invention, and explain how it overcomes some of these problems with the original LSTM?

I will start with a spoiler. Because I talked about FlashAttention, we are faster than FlashAttention, both in training and in inference, especially inference.

4. xLSTM Reclaims Sequence Memory

Going back to xLSTM, after seeing the rise of the Transformer, we thought: First of all, could it not be LSTM? Is the residual backbone architecture for building very large models the key? Is it important to build big models, or is it important to have some specific technology for looking back and compressing the history?

We thought LSTM should be able to do it. We asked the question: Can we scale up LSTM like Transformers and get the performance of Transformers?

We knew some limitations and drawbacks of LSTMs. One was parallelization. We made LSTM parallel as well, using the same ideas as attention to parallelize it.

But there were 2 other limitations. One was that LSTM could not revise decisions. If you stored something and then saw that something different came along, you could not revise the decision. Let me give you an example.

Suppose you want to find new clothes. You find clothes at a certain price, and then, if you look further on the internet, you find clothes that are even better and have a lower price. Perhaps the clothes should also fit your shoes or whatever. If you find something better, you should throw away what you already have stored, both in terms of how well it matches your shoes and how surprising it is.

The old LSTM could not do this. If I found a better-matching item and had to memorize the surprise, I would have to delete everything I had stored. xLSTM can do this.

The idea is exponential gating, which allows us to revise a storage decision. If I find something better, I upweight it very heavily and then normalize it. Therefore, the old best solution is downweighted. In this way, I can find something better and throw away my old information.

In theory, the forget gate could do this, but in practice you cannot learn to forget at the same time as learning to store something very precisely. Exponential gating—exponential input gating—was the key. It says, “I have something better; forget everything that came before.” This gave us an advantage.

The second thing was a matrix memory. The original LSTM has a scalar memory, a single number that you can store. That is not much. The new xLSTM has a whole Hopfield network. We use a classical Hopfield network, which became popular again because of the Nobel Prize awarded to John Hopfield.

Instead of a single scalar, we use a whole Hopfield network. It is like a classical Hopfield network plus gating. The input gate says what we should store in the Hopfield network, and the forget gate says how much the old storage items should be downweighted.

It is a Hopfield network equipped with gating. We merged the Hopfield-network idea with the LSTM idea, and this gave us an LSTM with a much stronger and much bigger memory.

The first ingredient was exponential gating, the second was increasing the memory, and the third was parallelizing it. We used these 3 ingredients to build the new xLSTM. The results were fantastic. To be honest, we did not expect them to be so good.

I suppose the memory mechanism is also reminiscent of the fast-weights approach that programmers were using in the 1990s.

Exactly. Like Hopfield networks, it is always an outer-product memory. You have a memory and a new item. You have 2 vectors: One we call the key, as in attention, and the other we call the value. You take the outer product of the key and value and add it to the memory.

That is the basic idea. What we added was an input gate for the new item that is added and a forget gate for the old memory. It is a known technique. This outer-product storage idea is even older: Ising models in the 1970s already had these ideas, and Hopfield networks used the same idea. Fast weights also used it.

Could you give a little more intuition about the gating? You moved from exponential gating rather than sigmoid. In the 1990s, people were using sigmoid and hyperbolic tangent, even as activation functions. What was the intuition at the time for using sigmoid, and in a little more detail, how does the exponential version fix the problem?

The sigmoid is natural for gating. It is between 0 and 1. A value of 1 means the gate is open and everything goes through; a value of 0 means nothing goes through and the gate is closed. In between, you do scaling. The sigmoid is a natural function to use for gating.

But it has a problem. Suppose you encounter 1 sequence element and say, “I will multiply it by 0.5.” Then another element comes along, and you say, “If this is 0.5, I should multiply it by 4.” That does not work because the sigmoid only goes up to 1. You cannot override it.

Exponential gating is not limited in that way. You can always use larger values. The problem is that we never used exponential activation functions in the earlier days because learning would break down.

We need a second ingredient: normalization. You have an exponential quantity, and then you normalize it by the exponential input gates. It is like a softmax. In a softmax, you have e to the power of something—the exponentials—and then divide by the sum of those exponentials.

It is like a rolling softmax. We went in the direction of attention with LSTM, but it is recursive. It is very similar: You have an exponential input gate, but then divide by the sum of all input gates. It is a little like a softmax, but different.

There is another thing: It changes the dynamics of learning. We do not have a clear understanding of exactly what is happening. We tried different architectures, and softmax with this exponential function gave us an advantage in the learning dynamics.

When other systems got stuck or stopped learning, there were some gradient peaks that allowed the Transformer to learn. We now observe the same thing with xLSTM. The original reason was to revise a storage decision, but the learning dynamics were also modified in a positive way.

It is not completely understood. There may be some random directions where, if learning is no longer progressing, random weight updates help it move forward. But that is speculation.

Exponential gating, matrix memory, and parallelization. I am interested in what triggered the flash of inspiration. If you could go back in time and tell your younger self about this, would your younger self have said, “Yes, absolutely”? Would you have done it then?

Yes, but my younger self would have had to see a couple of examples. At that time, we did not have these big language models or the problems where we could see that exponential gating and a big memory would help. We did not have these datasets.

If I had known what to do, but also what data would come, I would have said, “Yes, of course. I have such a small storage capacity. If you want to store much more, of course you have to do this.” I would have seen it. But I also needed a glimpse into the future of what kind of data would come.

In your paper, you studied how these things scale with data, model size, and so on. Can you tell me about some of the theoretical underpinnings?

These are standard scaling laws. They were not developed by us. You increase the number of model parameters and follow a certain exponential law, a certain curve. Then you compare it with Transformers or state-space models, which also follow a certain law, and you can extrapolate.

You can say that if you build larger models, they will also be better. These are scaling laws that were used, and were not invented by us. They are useful because you can predict how larger models will behave if you make a model larger or use more data.

You mentioned state-space models and things like Mamba. Could you contrast xLSTM with that?

Mamba was the most competitive method for LSTM. After our publication on xLSTM, Mamba-2 came out. The nice thing is that Mamba-2 is xLSTM without the input gate. It is exactly the same in that respect.

Mamba-2 has e to the power of a softplus. Softplus is a sigmoid; you can do the mathematics and see that it also has forget gates. Mamba-2 is like xLSTM, but without the input gate. It is nice to see that different methods converge to a similar architecture.

I do not think it is the same as Mamba, because Mamba does not have an input gate. I think the input gate is important. But the remaining architecture is very, very similar. We started with state-space models, and we started with LSTM, Hopfield networks, and so on. Now we are increasingly converging on very similar architectures.

Are you seeing any hints of industry adoption of xLSTM?

First of all, xLSTM is now faster than FlashAttention in inference and also in training. I can tell you why. With FlashAttention, you also have to put things across the whole context into the GPU.

What we do is use chunks of FlashAttention, and between the chunks we do the recurrent operation. We designed the chunks of FlashAttention so that we could be more efficient on a GPU. If you have smaller chunks, you do not have to squeeze everything in and do inefficient operations. You can make the chunks exactly the size of the caches.

We use FlashAttention technology—we took the idea from these guys—but we use the right size of FlashAttention. We do FlashAttention, recurrence, FlashAttention, recurrence, and now we are faster than applying FlashAttention over the whole context.

This gives us speed in both training and inference. I did not expect that we could be faster than FlashAttention in training. I thought, “No way.” But it is unbelievably good.

We knew we would be fast in inference because attention also has to be autoregressive. You have to produce a new word in generation and then push everything into the system again. You produce a new word, and you have to push everything into the system. You can cache some of the processing and do it fast, but attention is not well suited to an autoregressive mechanism.

In training, you have the whole sequence, so we should not be faster. It is unbelievable that we are. But in inference, I was sure that we would be faster.

You are aware of the Strawberry or o1 thing.

Oh yes. It is doing more on the inference side. It is thinking more. On the inference side, we would be much faster. If we were 100 times faster in inference, we could do 100 times more thinking. This is a big opportunity, and it plays into our hands. We are exactly in that area: We are fast at inference.

5. xLSTM Enters Industrial AI

This fast inference speed also helps us move away from language and go into industrial applications. Language is not at the core of many industries. There are many companies working on language, but it is not the main business for many industries.

Now I can go into robotics. Transformers have been used for robotics. DeepMind had a paper, and Tesla had a paper, but they all struggled because a Transformer is too slow. Sometimes you have to wait a couple of seconds before the agent reacts.

Now we have something that is much faster. We have a second advantage: We have a fixed memory. We know in advance how large the memory is. If we put it on an embedded device, we know how large the memory is, and we can design the xLSTM with a fixed memory.

No matter how long the sequence is—whether it has 100 sequence elements or 100 million—you use the same fixed memory. We can fix the memory and make it very fast.

These 2 things give us an advantage for embedded systems and robotics. Somebody has already tried it with drones. They have GPUs on the drones, and they emailed us. They do not want to reveal who they are, but they said the results were unbelievable. The drones are now flying autonomously.

You need real-time control. You cannot wait, and with xLSTM it is working. It is fantastic. Someone also talked to me at NeurIPS, and I said, “I do not know whether I want to reveal this, because it is so good for them.” It is a company.

The same applies to robotics and drones, and also to self-driving cars. In a car, you want to be energy-efficient, fast, concise, and small, while still having a powerful system. I see big advantages with xLSTM.

Perhaps it could even go into a cellphone. I am not sure; I do not know the constraints of a cellphone, so perhaps that is too far-fetched. But we have something that is energy-efficient and fast, and we can control the amount of memory. We can design the memory for the particular embedded device.

Do you think xLSTM moves us closer to something that resembles symbolic manipulation?

6. Neurosymbolic AI Takes Shape

I do not know. We have a project about neurosymbolic AI and symbolic manipulation.

In one sense, I would say that xLSTM is better at building abstractions. What I am missing in the AI systems we have out there is that I have never seen an AI system build proper abstractions. They are always human-made. Language is human-made. If you look at ImageNet, a human put the object in the middle.

I want to see an artificial system come up with a new concept that is not human-made. I do not know whether xLSTM can do it. But in its memory, by combining more tokens and more information from the past, perhaps it can build a concept.

It is more efficient to store a concept or an abstraction than to store individual items, as attention would do. If you can compress information into something, then you can store it more efficiently.

Suppose you see the sun, a beach, a cocktail, and so on. You might say, “Perhaps somebody is on a beach holiday.” That is 1 abstract concept, and storing it may be more efficient than storing the individual items.

The same should happen in industrial applications. You see concepts and structures, and you store the structure rather than the individual things. If you have the right abstraction, you are better at generalization because you will hopefully encounter those abstract concepts again in the future.

The reason I asked is that you also have your symbolic AI paper, and I am really interested in neurosymbolic architectures. There are many approaches to doing that. In some systems, people use Transformers to generate programs. Some people skip explicit program generation and get Transformers to perform symbolic-like tasks.

Transformers are incredibly limited. They cannot copy or count, and there are many things they cannot do. Do you think xLSTM could overcome some of these obvious computational limitations of the Transformer?

Probably it can overcome some of them, but I think the solution is to combine both. What we have right now is not the final solution. We have to go symbolic.

There are already systems where a Transformer perhaps uses MATLAB to solve an equation, or queries the internet, or whatever. We need this because there are so many symbolic techniques that have been developed over the last 50 years. We should somehow integrate them and use them.

I do not know whether everything is learnable in principle, but a shortcut would be to use what is already there and combine it in the right way. In Austria, the biggest AI project is about 40 million euros. I am leading it. It is called Bilateral AI, because it brings symbolic and subsymbolic AI together.

We need this because, as I said in my talk, scaling is over. Now we have to go into the industrialization of AI. We need new techniques, and perhaps not only new techniques from the subsymbolic side—from neural networks. We may also need things from the symbolic side to make systems more robust.

If a production process stops or stalls, that should not happen. Therefore, you may need symbolic methods integrated with or surrounding subsymbolic methods such as large language models.

I completely agree. We need to build hybrid systems.

Yes, that is the neurosymbolic approach, and that is what we are doing in Austria in this large project. It is hard to bring the 2 communities together. Sometimes they do not like each other. One side says, “We have big success stories,” and the other says, “We have other success stories.”

But I think this is the way to advance AI and to build industrial AI. For industrial AI, we need symbolic systems to make things robust and to guarantee certain behavior. We now have to team up with the symbolic people to advance AI.

I completely agree that we need formal verification. The problem with hybrid neurosymbolic systems is the amount of human engineering. Can we have our cake and eat it? Can we automate their creation with some kind of architecture search?

We are building large systems with many components, many verifiers, and so on. How much of that can we automate?

In the group where we work on neurosymbolic AI, the symbolic people say, “We need machine learning, perhaps to adjust the parameters of our symbolic systems.” The subsymbolic people say, “We can use symbolic AI as a shield surrounding it.” But they do not merge or integrate the systems—for example, by learning rules or learning new symbolic rules.

I know how symbolic systems work, but perhaps some rules are better. You have to integrate these things better. Right now, the 2 groups are thinking in their own domains, and I am missing this integration.

If somebody is doing it, they take something from this community and something from that community and glue it together, but it is clumsy and not elegant. Elegant systems would learn some formal systems, with the learning going into the formal systems and the formal systems becoming an integrated subcomponent of a large language model or whatever.

Right now, it is not there. These 2 groups are too separated.

On the connectionist side, there are Hinton, Bengio, LeCun, and you and Jürgen as pioneers of connectionism. You are also neurosymbolic people. You have always been that way. Why is that?

Going back in history, Germany and Austria were very strong in symbolic AI. There was a lot of work on formal systems and many professors working in that area. In the United States and elsewhere, there were also these developments.

Jürgen was a very unusual person. He was always thinking along different lines. There was a large group working on AI, but it was formal AI. Jürgen said, “No, I think neural networks are the way to go.”

When I went to university, I was a student and everything was boring. There were theories that were 50 or 100 years old, and all of computer science was about old things—quicksort and so on. But there was this neural-network work, and nobody knew what would come out of it.

You learned something new. It was super interesting. This was also Jürgen’s attitude. It was something new, not something traditional. In our group, we also read science-fiction books. I would say, “I have a new science-fiction book,” and many ideas came from that.

We discussed how you could traverse the universe with generation ships, what was possible, what was not possible, and various good ideas. It was an exciting time. Recurrent networks were a new technology, and there were many innovative ideas.

Moving away from traditional symbolic systems and into this new neural-network work was super fascinating. You did not know what would come out of it. You changed something here or there and saw what happened. That was exciting.

In a way, that is very polymathic. It is knowledge of so many different fields at once. Jürgen was talking about things like Gödel machines, recursive self-improvement, and artificial creativity. All these amazing ideas were, in some sense, before their time.

Do you think things are starting to swing back the other way? I am seeing many neurosymbolic architectures coming out of DeepMind, for example. Do you think consensus is changing a little bit?

I think so. Perhaps it has to, because our path ends with scaling up and making things larger. We build larger models, but I do not know whether that was the right way. It is more about storing more information in these systems. You put more training data in to make them larger, but not smarter.

The systems are not different, so we are only larger. If this has an end, we have to become smarter. I think the symbolic or neurosymbolic approach has to come because it may give us what is missing.

I do not know where the subsymbolic approach—where neural networks—should go next. We scale it up. We now have almost brain-like models, but something is missing. They are not doing what humans do.

Humans learn differently, with a few examples. We have other abstraction capabilities, and we are much more adaptive. We can plan. Something is missing, and perhaps symbolic methods can give us what is missing.

How do we blend these ideas together? People think of System 1 and System 2 as being completely different, but they might be very interlinked. A lot of reasoning is perception-guided. How do we really integrate these ideas?

It is very popular after Kahneman, and also in Turing Award speeches. They always use System 1 and System 2 because it is compelling. But I am not sure there is a clear separation.

There may be a clear separation if you play a game of chess and start to plan; then you have System 2. But there are intermediate things. Sometimes you have a gut feeling and grab something without thinking about it. Sometimes you think a little bit.

I think there is a gradient. Sometimes you think very quickly, and sometimes you plan 2 steps: “Should I go here or there? Which is faster? I hear some people coming.” You make a couple of decisions, and it is a little bit of planning. It is intermediate.

I do not think there is a clear difference between System 1 and System 2. There are many things you do intuitively, like System 1, and sometimes you think about something for a long time. But there are many things in between.

For example, if I leave here, will I go home? I can go straight ahead, or perhaps I can go down there. I make a couple of decisions. It is a little bit of planning.

I agree. Should the abstractions in these systems always be human-intelligible? Elizabeth Spelke discussed core-knowledge priors, things like agents, spatial reasoning, objects, and so on.

It is almost as if there is a core set of basis functions that we have acquired or learned about how the world works. That suggests that any reasoning system would simply compose those simple priors together.

Is that all there is to reasoning, or do you think AI systems could discover strange, alien forms of reasoning that we would not understand?

I believe there can also be different concepts. We develop concepts and words, and that is what helps us. For example, a neural network might have speed and acceleration, and you have these concepts.

But if you apply a linear transformation to them, you have the same information, just mixed up a little bit. For a neural network, that is not a problem, because you can apply the inverse transformation. It is the same information, distributed differently. Sometimes it may help to have information distributed differently.

For us, we develop concepts and abstractions that help us as humans. They help us convey experience from one generation to the next generation and inform other people about what we have learned.

That is the most important thing we do. If our children had to learn for themselves which mushrooms are poisonous and which are not, it would take a long time. Most of the information our children acquire comes from previous generations. They go to school and learn from other people.

I think our language, our abstractions, and our way of thinking are tailored to transmit information from one generation to the next. Much of the information that you acquire as an individual human is far less than what you acquire through culture and society.

Our abstractions and language are tailored to our society. I think AI systems should come up with completely different kinds of reasoning and different abstractions for themselves. Other concepts might be much more useful to them because they live in the same world in a different way and manipulate the world in a different way.

It is something I think about a lot, because there is a constructive component to abstractions. There is the language game and this cultural transfer, and it seems to be in service of the utility of understanding each other.

But abstractions are still grounded in the physical world. Acceleration is a thing in the physical world, is it not?

For us, perhaps it is acceleration plus something else combined. That might be the real thing. I do not know whether acceleration alone is the concept, or whether it is acceleration plus location. I do not know.

Humans also have this strange ability to think about things that do not come directly from sensory experience—abstract mathematical or Platonic ideas. Where do those come from?

Many of these things could first of all be symbols. They could be placeholders for something more interesting. This also happens in physics. You have the concept of an atom, but you probably never saw an atom. I have not seen one, at least.

You have a concept of an atom. If you ask what shape an atom has, you might say it is a ball or a circle. Why not a triangle or whatever? You make these kinds of abstractions, and you have some image in your head for things.

Often, it is a placeholder. You say, “If this and this are together, let us call it this,” and you invent a nice word for it. You have an intuition, and perhaps you even have an image in your head, but sometimes it is abstract. It has no counterpart in reality.

Exactly. There is a huge difference between semantics and the actual thing. I often think that if we gave a 21st-century physics book to Newton and went back in time, he would not understand very much of it.

I completely agree. We are trained in a specific way of thinking, and it may be different from the way many generations ago thought.

This has been amazing. Can you tell the audience a bit more about NXAI?

7. NXAI Builds Industrial Simulations

NXAI is a new company. I already told you about the first idea behind its founding. I was super excited about xLSTM. I went to the media and said, “I have a new idea, but I do not have the money to show that it is a good idea.”

Then venture capital came in. They asked, “Do you have a business plan?” I said, “No. I am not interested in a business plan. I need some money to show that this is a good idea. I want to keep this idea in Europe and keep it local.”

Nobody understood the concept until somebody local said, “Yes, I will give you some money. Let us first fix the technology and then build on top of it, perhaps vertically.”

NXAI started with xLSTM. The first 10 million euros went into compute and the first paper. Now NXAI has expanded into a company dedicated to industrial AI.

One pillar is xLSTM, which is a new technology that we want to develop. We showed that, with a 7-billion-parameter model, we can compete with Transformer technology. It is powerful enough, but it has other advantages, such as energy efficiency and speed.

That allows us to go in other directions—not only in language, but also in industry. There are many companies working on language, and it is difficult to compete. I do not know whether you can make money there, and it is not our core business.

The second pillar is AI for simulation. We have some big success stories there because we can now do simulations that numerical methods struggle with.

There are discrete-element methods, which are based on particles. If you have 1 million particles, 10 million particles, or 100 million particles, numerical methods cannot cope anymore. The same is true with mesh points. In computational fluid dynamics, for example, you have mesh points if air flows over a car or an airplane.

Sometimes there are so many mesh points that the numerical methods no longer work. Now we have systems where, for example, if you change something on a car, a numerical simulation takes 3 weeks. The engineer makes a change, goes home, and after 3 weeks looks at what came out. We can do it in 3 minutes.

What is the idea behind these neural simulations? Why are they so good?

I always use the example of the Moon. The Moon can be described by its location, perhaps an impulse, and its mass. We do not describe every particle, every atom, or every grain of dust, but we can still predict very well where the Moon will be in an hour, the next day, or whatever.

In many numerical simulations, you can group particles because they form structures. If you can group them, you can speed up the simulation. If you throw a snowball, you do not simulate every snowflake. You simulate the whole snowball, and that is good enough.

An AI system can identify structures in which 10,000 particles stick together, do the same thing, or move in parallel. It can speed up the simulation.

For example, suppose you have corn in a machine. There is no need to model every corn kernel down to the atomic level. If you have 1 corn kernel and another corn kernel, you can learn the physics of how they interact—what happens if they are a little wet, a little larger, and so on.

Then, instead of representing thousands of points that a numerical simulation needs, you can represent a kernel or a grain. You learn the physics of the grains. There is no need to model every particle at the atomic level, and this helps speed up the simulations considerably.

These systems are extremely powerful because we can simulate situations where numerical methods struggle. In the steel industry, for example, there are huge furnaces filled with steel. They cannot simulate the process because there are too many particles—numerically, there are simply too many.

Often, they have to build a large prototype because the simulation cannot cope with the real system. Now we can skip the prototype. A prototype can cost 100 million euros, and we can simulate the real thing instead.

That could give industry a very big push if it works. That is the idea behind simulation. Johannes is the person who can tell you much more about it, and I think it is a very fruitful and very cool direction.

He is coming here in 30 minutes, so I will ask him about it. Sepp, it has been an honor and a pleasure to have you on. Thank you so much for joining us today.

It was a pleasure to be here. It was fun. I enjoyed it. Thank you.