驱动 Jupiter DeFi 超级应用的5条收入来源 | 收入元分析

The key idea is that it's almost the Amazon idea, right? You go to Amazon to buy books first, and then you go back and buy whatever—socks. Then you go back and buy a water bottle. Soon, you build a habit: when I need to buy something, I go to Amazon.

1. JLP is one of Jupiter’s most popular products

Jupiter is like Amazon for assets in that sense. When you want to trade, get yield, or learn more, this is the place you come. I think that habit is actually going to be the biggest revenue driver in taking people from using 1 product to using 3 or 4 products and being able to increase revenue with the exact same user set, simply by increasing lifetime value per user.

Welcome to the Edge podcast. I'm DeFi Dad here with Mneumatic. Today's show features Kash from Jupiter. Kash, thanks for joining us. How are you doing?

Kash Dhanda, great to have you back on, man. This will be a little bit different than our last show. On our last pod, we talked all about Jupiter Lend when it was a new product going live on Jupiter. This is going to be another series in our revenue meta, where we'll talk all about the many business lines of Jupiter.

We're going to talk about how Jupiter makes money and how much, which product lines are the most profitable, and what all this means for JUP token holders and where these revenues go. Then we want to know about new, exciting, up-and-coming products that may continue to sustain or drive further growth for Jupiter.

2. Overview of Jupiter ecosystem products

Why don't we just start with the many product lines of Jupiter? There are so many now, and I think even in my mind, I think about Jupiter as this DEX aggregator, but there's just so much going on under the hood. Maybe let's not dive too deep into the weeds, but if you can just give us the 15- to 20-second bullet points on all the different things happening in that Jupiter structure, that would be phenomenal.

It'll be tough, and this episode might be 16 hours long. So, dear viewer, please buckle up and pour yourself some tea. But if I had to give the very high-level view, I would say the goal with Jupiter is that anything you want to do with your on-chain financial life, you should just use Jupiter to do it.

We're going to split this across a few major categories. First, there's trading, where we have spot, perps, etc. There's earning—the yield products that we have. There's asset management products: our wallets, portfolio, etc. Then there's the developer suite, the kind of build section that we have.

Most things we'll see will fall under those 4 categories. I do think we have 18 products in total at this point in time. So there's a lot more detail to be had there, but: trade, earn, manage, build. Anything you want to do on-chain, you should use Jupiter to do it.

3. Jupiter’s biggest growth wins in 2025

Okay, so getting right into the numbers for 2025, Jupiter processed over $1.16 trillion in annual volume. It generated roughly $514 million in gross revenue, and you crossed $3 trillion in lifetime volume. Jupiter also doubled its product lines from 8 to more than 18 products, and you're also number 1 in terms of TVL among all protocols on Solana.

When you zoom out from 2025, what do you think among all of this mattered most? What's most indicative of the real growth that you've had?

Certainly, from a revenue-business standpoint, trading remains the anchor, right? Perps generated something like 55% of the revenues, and spot was another 35% or 40%. So trading is still the key foundation on which Jupiter is built.

But the thing that I think is most exciting that you saw start to happen in 2025 is the diversification of the business. Eighteen months ago, perps were really the only thing that we made money on. Today, we have at least a dozen revenue-generating products and possibly more than that. It's hard to keep count.

I think the real story of 2025 is watching a business go from dominant in 1 sector to emergent across multiple sectors, with some of those becoming more dominant now, like on the yield side. That's what you want to see as an investor from a maturing business. You don't want to see it just stay in its own lane and be confined to this relatively narrow area, profitable as it might be. You want a business that can weather multiple cycles.

I think the thing that gets me most excited is seeing our RFQ solution, Jupiter Z, start to grow and do billions of dollars in volume and millions of dollars in fees; seeing Jupiter Lend start to actually add value to the bottom line; and seeing prediction markets kick off. I think our stablecoin maybe started in January, but that, again, is driving additional revenue.

4. DEX aggregator revenue is still the foundation

None of those are as big as perps or spot today, but in 6 to 12 months, we'll see what the story is. So we sort of called out 2025 there. Let's maybe set the table as well for how things are going today.

It's a different market environment and a different crypto regime right now than in 2025. I think everybody can attest to that—sadly. But Jupiter's still cooking: roughly $2.35 billion in TVL, around $650 million in annualized fees, roughly $150 million in annualized protocol revenue, and more than 50% of all Solana DEX volume is routing through Jupiter.

How do you think about the current scale, monetization profile, and maturity of Jupiter as a business today? I'm sure it's kind of like the Kobe line: the job's not finished. But with all these new product lines coming on, what growth potential do you see? Where are you in the mission, I guess?

We're at a delicate and somewhat precarious point in the mission, to be very real with you. I think we've grown—we've been very lucky to grow wildly over the last few years—and we're starting to see a lot of these different bets pay out.

Geoffrey Moore wrote this book called Crossing the Chasm that you guys might have read as well. If anyone watching has not read it, you absolutely should. It's the best marketing book, the best tech book that I've ever read.

He has this basic idea that you can divide the population into a normal distribution. On the early side, you have the innovators, the early adopters, etc.—people who are willing to eat some pain to use your product because it solves such a pressing problem for them. Then you have a chasm or a gap as you start to try to get into the early-mainstream type of users.

I think that's where Jupiter is right now. I think that's where crypto as an industry is right now. Relative to a lot of purely on-chain or DeFi businesses, of course, we're much larger. We have a very durable monetization profile. We are mature in that sense.

But relative to where we need to go—and here I'm looking not just at Hyperliquid, but at Coinbase, Robinhood, eToro, those kinds of companies—there's still a ton of area that we want to cover, right? We are the biggest fish in a relatively small pond right now. But it's our belief that this pond is growing very rapidly, and we're expected to grow along with it.

As we see not just more assets coming on-chain, so we have more trading volume, but also more liquidity coming on-chain, let's be real: the total addressable market for savings is actually much larger than it is for trading, in my opinion. As you see that come on, more RWAs, and then, critically, our neobanking product as well—Jupiter Spend—is starting to take off and bring more people in.

I think that's where you're going to see a lot of the growth. Yes, trading will continue to grow.

But every other vertical is also going to get bigger, from prediction markets to peer-to-peer lending and so on.

5. Perps is Jupiter's biggest revenue driver

Yeah, you've built up such a captive, financialized audience of users, and it just makes sense to serve them more products. I want to talk about more of these new and up-and-coming products that you've been dropping little nuggets about a bit later, but I want to drill into a bit more of what's been driving the Jupiter machine. You've touched on some of these things and mentioned perps, but let's break that down a little bit more for people.

How big is the perps engine to Jupiter? If you can break it down in numbers, even percentage-wise, what are some of the other products that are driving profitability for Jupiter right now?

Yeah, we posted this long, 30-to-40-page 2025 year-end review, and we'll have one coming up for investors shortly as well. Bear with me—I might get these numbers a little bit wrong off the top of my head, but perps is something like 50% to 55% of the overall business right now.

That's for the obvious reason that perps is a very lucrative product, as we all know. It's limited to just 3 pairs right now because it uses the AMM model instead of the more normalized order-book model that people tend to use these days. The advantage of our model, and the reason that we've had so much success with it despite only having 3 pairs and despite having higher fees in many cases, is guaranteed liquidity.

If you want to trade a $20 million position, there are very few places where you know as a fact that, no matter what, you're going to be able to close that position, no matter what the price is. Jupiter Perps is one of those. So that remains really important.

The spot business we break up into a few different chunks. We have Ultra, which is our best trading engine. It powers a bunch of different products, including regular spot trading, limit orders, and dollar-cost-averaging trading as well.

In addition to that, we also have Jupiter Z, which is our RFQ product. Market makers can plug directly into it to service trades with no slippage and no gas. It works particularly well for KYC'd products or permissioned products. It's the only way to trade permissioned products, quite honestly.

6. New revenue streams

To the degree that you're bullish on more permissioned products coming on-chain, we'd expect to see those revenue numbers continue to grow as well. Outside of that, some of the more emergent areas that we're able to monetize fairly well are prediction markets.

That's still small. Over the last 5 weeks, I think every week we've seen new all-time highs in volume, but those volumes are still relatively small. That is, I think, a key area where we can really expand the revenue side of the business.

It's hard to give a specific flat fee because the fees are dynamic based on the percentage of the markets. It's cheaper to take a long-shot position than the opposite. Prediction markets will be a major revenue driver for us, for sure.

JupUSD will continue to drive more revenue. As we all know, stablecoins are maybe the greatest business in the history of mankind—I don't know. They drive tons of revenue in a relatively straightforward way. We have a few ways that we can make sure that those grow, which we can talk about later, perhaps.

On the lending side, we see a lot of revenue coming in via Jupiter Lend, with front ends built over at Fluid. We're very bullish on a new product that we have coming out called Offer Book, which is a peer-to-peer, order-book-based lending protocol where the APYs are much higher because the asset types that are serviced are much higher or much wider.

The lending vertical is relatively small as an overall portion of share today, but what we've seen from lending businesses—from Aave and everyone else—is that they scale exceptionally well. The cost remains the same, and you just get more and more pure margin on top. So we're expecting to see more there.

The final piece that I'd put in is our neo-banking product, our stablecoin spend card called Jupiter Spend. It's built directly into the wallet in Jupiter Mobile right now. Over time, I think we're going to be really excited about the kinds of unique neo-banking products we can offer.

We have a multi-billion-dollar lending market, and we have a bunch of people spending stablecoins using direct deposit and getting their community checks in. I don't want to spill too much alpha, but you can probably imagine where we go once you have these kinds of components that can come together. I think there's a lot of power there.

More broadly, if I zoom out on the whole picture here, the key idea is that it's almost the Amazon idea. You go to Amazon to buy books at first, and then you go back and buy socks. Then you go back and buy a water bottle. Soon, you just build a habit: when I need to buy something, I go to Amazon.

Jupiter is like Amazon for assets in that sense. When you want to trade, when you want to get yield, when you want to learn more, this is the place that you come. I think that habit is actually going to be the biggest revenue driver.

Taking people from using 1 product to using 3 or 4 products, and being able to increase revenue with the same exact user set simply by increasing lifetime value per user—that's the opportunity.

I think Jupiter has always been representative of finding the most obvious product-market fit and continuing to double down on that while building out all the products that you offer.

You go back to the days of—I remember first learning about Jupiter just being a DEX aggregator, and it was like, “Wow, okay, now I know on Solana where I can swap any token and reliably get the best rate.” I know that that DEX aggregator still continues to drive a tremendous amount of annualized revenue—fees for the protocol.

But then you layer on top of that perps. The point of this is that I'm always looking to go back and figure out what the overlooked, most simple opportunities available to us in DeFi are. Everyone's trying the most complex strategies. They're going to loop this and loop that, they're going to hedge this, and I just want simple. I want simple, predictable yield.

One of those that stood out to me, which underpins your trading products, is JLP. I was looking at JLP, and it looks like, as of today, it's reporting 8.5% APY. Anything to comment on in terms of the performance of JLP?

As far as I can tell, just monitoring it over the long term, has GLP ever been unprofitable? Month over month, it looks like one of the most reliable places to earn yield. You can borrow against it on the platform, even before you had the Lend product. This is something that I continually come back to and think, “I should just put some money into GLP and earn with GLP.” It's so simple and so obvious.

GLP. All of my lawyers are not watching. Lawyers, if you're watching this, please turn this off, because I'm not going to give financial advice, but it's going to sound like financial advice.

GLP is the greatest token that exists, period, point blank, end of story, in my opinion. It is an index fund of Bitcoin soul and ETH, and then it has some stables as well. So you're kind of cushioned on the downside, but you're also kind of giving up some of the upside. It's not purely one-to-one with those markets.

It is the primary savings instrument for on-chain people, including myself and many others. If I'm selling a token but I still want some kind of broad-market exposure, I'll put it into GLP, knowing that I have that yield that's going to supplement anything that's coming through.

It's a great product to leverage as well, with relatively low leverage, because the price is volatile—it's tied to the price of the underlying. But it is the single most popular trade of the last cycle and possibly the most popular trade even right now.

Professional funds run GLP delta-neutral, basically. You buy GLP, then hedge out the price exposure of Bitcoin, SOL, and ETH, and then you just clear that 8.5% all day and all night. That's part of the reason why GLP has become a near-$1 billion asset—or it was a billion-dollar asset before Drift got hacked.

Absolutely, I think that is a preferred vehicle for basically every person I talk to. It's funny, because I'll talk to some funds or whoever else and say, “Hey, you should pick up some JUP. Here's the growth story. It looks great. JUP, the token, pays 21% APY. Isn't that incredible?”

They'll say, “Wow, that sounds really interesting.” I'll ask, “What is your feeling about JUP?” And they'll say, “We love JLP. Let me tell you that. We're big holders of JLP already.”

I think telling that story for both tokens ends up being important, but GLP is the anchor of Solana DeFi. It is certainly the anchor of many liquid funds that are out there.

When you're looking for yield, I will say it is not stable yield in 2 senses. First, the price of GLP is volatile. It goes up and down with the market. So if you're looking for risk-free or price-free yield—let's say Serum USDC or something like that, PST—those are a little bit different in their profile.

But what you get as a crypto native is upside as well.

Yeah, and GLP makes so much sense in a neobank as well. If you're already of the belief that you're here already, you're on Jupiter, you're a believer in crypto, and I personally use Bitcoin, ETH, SOL, and HYPE as my treasury assets that I borrow against already, packaging that into 1 token that generates yield makes a ton of sense, even for this neobank path that you're going.

7. The importance of Jupiter’s wallet development

Kash, I started realizing in your previous answer that this easily could have been an 8-part miniseries podcast to talk about all the—yeah, it's become abundantly clear. But I want to ask you another question, not as related to revenue, but more so: say you had to take perps out of the equation, what is the most strategically important business line to Jupiter that you would say—even throw revenue out the window—just in terms of level of importance, where you think it could go, customer retention, stickiness, all that stuff? What do you think is one of the most important things that Jupiter's building right now?

Arguably, the most important, I think, will actually be the wallets, which might be a counterintuitive answer because there are a billion wallets out there; it's somewhat commoditized. But what we've seen with the wallets is that they allow us to own that end-user relationship and build up much more of that trust, such that when we introduce new products, our wallet users are the first ones to find out, the first ones to use them, and the first ones to be committed to them.

Even simple things like push notifications on Jupiter Mobile: sure, you get them every time you spend on the card, but you also can get them for prediction markets that you're interested in. If you've wagered on 3 sports markets before, we'll tell you when your favorite team's playing again, right? That kind of ability to reach people from a retention perspective is so powerful, no matter what the cycle is or what's happening on the chart. That might be the most strategically important, and certainly that's how we're treating it internally as a key vector for growth.

Even if it doesn't drive a lot of incremental revenue in the short term, we know that's the long-term base that allows us to stay top of mind for users.

8. The potential for Jupiter Lend growth

What do you think would be the second-most-important product beyond the wallets? I totally understand what you guys are building there from a distribution standpoint. What else stands out?

I'm a little bit biased. I lead Jupiter Lend myself. I'm the cat herder and chief operating officer, but I do a lot of product work as well. Lend is the one that's closest to my heart, and so I have to say Lend. I have no choice. But I can back it up as well.

It does generate some meaningful revenue for the company, which is great. But it really positions us in the center of the asset-issuer picture on Solana and on-chain as a whole. Everyone comes through to talk to us for this reason, because they know that you want to go where the liquidity is. We're at $2.2 billion today; 9 or 10 months ago, we did not exist. You can only imagine where we're going to be in another 9 months from now.

I think having all that TVL, all that sticky liquidity, as you guys had said, is what really allows us to remain central to any future picture that might come up here. Every stablecoin issuer needs to talk to us. Every major asset wants to talk to us with these isolated markets, the risk creators, and so on. That allows us to really keep our hands in the center of things and create really interesting deals with folks.

9. How Jupiter Lend generates revenue for JUP holders

We do JUSD with Athena. We now have a market that we're doing with Bitwise as well. These are the kinds of partnerships that don't really happen if you only focus on trading.

As far as I know, Jupiter Lend hit around $1 billion in total supplied assets in just 8 days when you guys launched. This was a product we were super excited to cover, just knowing that the actual protocol was based on Fluid and is powered by Fluid. So that's exciting, of course, but since then, you guys have grown like crazy. The market conditions have changed drastically.

And so, despite that, I think, compared to other bear markets, Nomadic and I are still contending that it's pretty damn impressive how well DeFi is holding up, even with the exploits that have happened. It's impressive, the liquidity that has sustained on-chain. As of this recording, you guys sit around $1.65 billion in total supplied assets. It looks like total borrowed as of today is $675 million.

Can you just remind us: where are fees being charged in Jupiter Lend? Basically, how does Jupiter Lend generate revenue? And where does the revenue go? Is that ultimately going back to JUP token holders?

Absolutely. First, a little fact-check: please don't be bearish. It's $2.2 billion. It's $1.65 billion in the main market, and then we just launched this new market with Athena, which ran up to $500 million in, I don't know, 4 days or something. It's just been an absolute whirlwind.

I tweeted at the time when we hit $1 billion in 8 days. I was like, “Well, the first billion is the hardest.” Turns out that's not true. The second billion is much harder. It took us much longer than 8 days to get after it, but now we're starting to get there, which is great to see. Hopefully, we're going to keep going pretty rapidly from here.

As far as the economics go, we have a 50/50 revenue share with our mutual friends over at Fluid. The basic way that it works is they did the underlying infrastructure, the architecture, and the design. We help with product distribution, partnerships, and things of that nature. As I said, we do a 50/50 split.

As with all Jupiter revenues—all of our Jupiter on-chain revenues—50% of our on-chain revenues then go directly into token buybacks, which happen programmatically every few minutes. You can track it on-chain very easily. So, in a literal sense, 25% of all the revenues that come out of Jupiter Lend end up going into the JUP token.

As far as the fees go, there's a 10% reserve factor on the interest paid from borrowers to lenders. There are debates about whether you're charging the borrowers or charging the lenders. I don't really care; it happens within this kind of context. The 10% of the interest goes over there.

10. What went into launching Bitwise x Ethena market

There are certain areas where we might increase our reserve factor for riskier assets to build up more of a cushion or to better compensate lenders and things like that. But that's the broad strokes: simple, 10%, and then half that goes to Fluid, half that goes to us.

This isn't strictly a revenue-related question, but something I was curious about with this Bitwise, Ethena, Fluid, curator partnership that's gone on on Jupiter. What do you think were the driving factors that made a company like Bitwise—an institution like Bitwise—become comfortable with the Solana ecosystem, Jupiter, and also, I guess, the underlying technology?

Also, it's in the face of all of these exploits. I know Bitwise are true believers in crypto and DeFi, but what went into that deal and partnership? As you mentioned, I think it's gone over $500 million in the 4 days that it was available. If you can give us a few high-level points there.

11. Jupiter Lens DEX, prediction markets, Offerbook, and Jupiter Spend

As we were designing the market, Guy and I talked about what we could do together and how it might look. I think we had a mutual concern that the last few months have not been kind to DeFi, right? We've all spent a lot of time atoning for the sins of others and explaining, “No, no, no, we're okay. No, no, no, we don't have bad debt,” et cetera, et cetera.

We wanted to do 2 things to make people feel really comfortable. The first one was an extremely isolated market. When I say isolated, I don't mean in the normal sense. It is a forked version of the protocol. It's got a different multisig, different signers, and all that kind of stuff, right? So it could not be more separate. It's not just isolated in that sense.

We want to keep it super skinny in terms of the assets that we're supporting: USDE, USDD, SOL. That's it—2 stablecoins and SOL. That was the first piece of, “Okay, how do we minimize the number of risk assumptions as much as possible?”

The second piece was that people do not have a lot of confidence in DeFi right now. There is a crisis of faith in DeFi, honestly. So we knew we needed to work with a partner that would be able to bring some of that institutional credibility and show that this is not junior-varsity stuff. When you're working with Jupiter Lend and Jupiter more broadly, you're working with the best in the business.

That's where Bitwise came in. We've been working or talking to those guys for a long time. Shout-out particularly to the Fluid guys and Vishal, with whom we've been really working on that relationship for a while, helping them build up more understanding and more trust.

They already issued the largest Solana ETF, so it was a little crazy to us that they weren't actually actively involved in DeFi. We talked to Hong, John, Hunter, and the rest of the gang there, and realized there was a clear fit in vision: it's about risk first, and it's about security first.

The only thing that really matters is making sure that this market does not blow up. Everything else comes second and is subservient to that. That alignment was there; that was key. Their understanding of the Fluid architecture, how liquidations function, and so forth—that was key.

Ultimately, having a brand they could put their own brand behind was important. To be super clear, Bitwise manages more assets themselves than exist in Solana DeFi. Bitwise by itself is bigger than all of Solana DeFi put together—Jupiter, Kamino, and everybody. So for them to step in is a big deal. Their brand really means something.

I think that was the final piece of the puzzle. We took them through the story, what we've built at Jupiter, what Jupiter Lend is all about, and what Athena is, which they're obviously familiar with. The rest is history.

12. The JupUSD stablecoin and how Jupiter will grow its usage

I want to pivot to JupUSD. Stablecoins are, to your point, one of the greatest products ever created, and there's so much more room for growth. I remember when Jupiter launched JupUSD, and I want to say you were all still fairly early to this idea of launching your own stablecoin. I never foresaw any of this. I thought maybe we'd just live with a few major stablecoins, and now I'm seeing the writing on the wall that there's a chance we're going to have thousands, if not millions, of stablecoins. But there will be fewer winners in that space.

When we look at JupUSD, you've hit something like 100,000 monthly active users recently. According to our notes, you did around $721 million in volume and $65 million in TVL in just the first couple of months. What else can you tell us about the state of JupUSD? Why should DeFi investors be looking at JupUSD? Is there anything that differentiates it?

It is extremely early, I would say. This is one of those classic times when my own energy and some of the team's energy was like, “Oh, yeah, we'll smash. We'll go and get so big.” It turns out growing a stablecoin is really difficult, especially in this crowded environment.

The thing that we have that other people don't is a thriving ecosystem where we can weave JupUSD throughout. That was really the intention. One day, I'd love to be as big as Tether. I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. That's all they do, all the time. They have a massive head start, and so on.

But we think we can offer something really differentiated, which is a stablecoin for the people. JupUSD is not a yield-bearing stablecoin. My lawyers are hopefully not watching anymore, but if they are watching, I said that. So, it's not yield-bearing.

13. Overview of JUP token value accrual

The underlying economics that come from T-bills and our partnership with Athena are real. We built the stablecoin in order to give those economics back to the users and make our whole ecosystem stick. Here are a few quick examples.

With prediction markets right now, you can wager any token that you'd like and invest with any token that you'd like. It gets converted to JupUSD on the other side of things. With the stablecoin payment card, all those stablecoins are going to be converted into JupUSD. So if you're receiving your paycheck and holding stables, we'll hold those in JupUSD in the relatively near future, once our custody layer is built out.

JLP has $200 or $300 million worth of stablecoins in it. We're going to be converting that into JupUSD as well over time. These are all unique things that we're able to do that no one else is able to do because they don't have their own lending market, their own perp-swap platform, their own neobank, and so on.

I think the longer-run vision is to use this as a sticky piece of the puzzle that keeps people living, breathing, and eating with Jupiter. The final bit of alpha that I'll give here is that we have already announced that we're launching the DEX that Fluid has on Jupiter Lend as well, so there will be a Jupiter Lend DEX.

If you believe in a world with a lot of stablecoins, I would be very excited about JupUSD as the asset that you pair with any of those new stablecoins on Jupiter Lend. That would give you a borrow-lend vault as well as a DEX liquidity pool, and you'd be able to leverage and spin that up very quickly.

I think it's going to be a major growth factor for JupUSD that people are sleeping on. If you understand the architecture and how much of the stablecoin volume Fluid does right now, Jupiter Lend is going to have a similar position very soon, arguably more so because we don't have a Curve equivalent on Solana.

If there are more stablecoins, that itself is beneficial for JupUSD in a way that's actually kind of negative for every other stablecoin. For us, it's going to help us grow.

Yeah, that last point, I think, is huge. Again, if you understand the Fluid architecture, I think it's probably going to be a huge potential boom for JupUSD, but also for volumes for you guys—especially stable pairs, right? This has worked extremely well for stables paired with other stables. So, yeah, that'll be interesting.

14. Jupiter is a platform for builders, not just an app

Something else I want to talk to you about: I saw a tweet, and hopefully this is correct, but the tweet basically said you've now got Robinhood, Coinbase, MetaMask, SushiSwap, and Uniswap integrating Jupiter infrastructure. Again, this isn't so much revenue-related, but should people start to think of Jupiter as infrastructure as well as a consumer app?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, first, the list is correct, and I'll also add—I forgot Twitter. Twitter also uses us for its cashtags feature, which is another tier-one partnership. There are many others.

Indeed.

Cashtags—are those named after you by any chance?

I wish. I get a little grief for that.

You've got to get a dad joke in every once in a while.

No, I do appreciate it. I heard Phantom has a stablecoin called Cash, and I'd heard about it before they launched it. I was like, “Please don't let it start with a K. Please don't let it start with a K.”

But anyway, it is very much true that we are the best in the business. We know that if you want to access Solana, you just choose Jupiter to do whatever you're going to do. We see every kind of major platform or partner do this.

The way that I think about it is that Jupiter is, yes, the largest product and the most-used product in Solana DeFi—arguably in the larger parts of DeFi. It is also the largest platform in DeFi. I use that in the Bill Gates kind of sense, where he said that a platform is defined by the participants in the ecosystem making more money than the foundation itself does.

That's how it is for us. Our partners have earned more than $750 million through our infrastructure. We have not made $750 million just yet, right? We're trying to get there in terms of net revenue, I should say. We're seeing this happen widely.

This turns out to be a bit of a call option. There's one vision of the future where there are compounding returns to a super app that builds the habit, builds the trust, and has everything all in one. That's obviously the product vision that we're building toward.

But to hedge the bet, in a sense, and help grow the entire pie—not just our own ecosystem—we focus really heavily on the developer platform. We just shipped a new upgrade that gives you Vercel-like insights into your deployments. You can see every single request and so on, basically creating an experience that feels reminiscent of normal Web2 experiences for the fintech that wants to integrate crypto for the first time, or whatever else it might be.

I do think that one vision of Jupiter's bull case is that the product continues to get mass amounts of users. The other is to treat us, in a sense, like we're one part Google and one part Stripe. Stripe benefited just as e-commerce grew. Jupiter is going to benefit just as DeFi grows generally. Google is kind of a destination site that benefits on its own as more users come to it.

Kash, you mentioned continually growing the number of users on Jupiter. I think one of the most important things that DeFi investors are trying to figure out is which of these protocols, when they grow, actually accrue value to the token.

Whether Jupiter is growing the number of users, trade volume, or the amount of liquidity on the Lend product, how does all of that feed back to the JUP token? Talk to me as someone who's a potential JUP token holder. I'm in the midst of this brutal down year so far, and I'm looking forward to when we get back to all-time highs.

JUP, in all transparency, is truly on my radar. I'm thinking about what's the opportunity here for when the market comes roaring back, and ultimately, how does the JUP token accrue value as the platform achieves more and more growth and success?

I think all tokens gain value in 2 forms, right? There’s narrative value, and then there’s financial value. We’ve kind of talked about the narrative value already, so I’ll leave that aside, because I think the question is more about the financial value specifically. But it’s worth saying that we have exposure to every part of on-chain finance. So, if you believe in any of those things going up—prediction markets, stablecoins, et cetera—Jupiter has the tailwinds to benefit from them from a token perspective.

On the financial side, though, we’re a mature business, and we treat it as such. We’re not in the position of, “Trust me, bro,” kind of tokenomics. What we do right now, concretely, is have a 50% revenue share back into the token via this third-party entity called the Litter Box Trust, which buys every single day. Last year, I think we bought back and burned something like 150 million tokens. I might get the numbers slightly wrong there. We’ve continued to buy back—I think we bought back another 100 million tokens already, if I’m not mistaken. So, massive amounts of buying are happening.

Those tokens are kind of locked. Ultimately, they might be burned as well after another DAO vote. We’ll see where it goes, but it’s direct value accrual from the business: as the business grows, token holders benefit, and vice versa. The entire intent was really to turn every user into an evangelist and a community member via Jupiter, and every Jupiter token holder into an evangelist for the product suite, and build this nice cyclical flywheel.

In addition, we do have a few product-based sinks where burn activity happens. For example, on our verified product, verify.jupiter.ag, people can check it out. It powers a lot of the ecosystem and keeps people safe from scams. To verify your token, you need to put in—or burn—1,000 JUP. That’s the way it works if you want the express lane. We’ve already burned a few million JUP like that.

We’re going to see that continue to grow steadily over time as more tokens come back. As another new asset is added, we’ll see a lot more burns happening there. We’ve been impressed by the quality of that model, because it creates a steady but small drumbeat of burning on top of the buybacks. We’re expecting to see more examples and more experiments in that direction over time as well.

By and large, I would say we’re extremely aligned with the token holders. I’ll tell you frankly: I don’t have any equity in the company. I don’t think anybody has any equity in the company. We all just live and die by the token. That’s the way it goes.

We uniquely never raised funds for Jupiter. This is before my time, but there are no VCs behind Jupiter who own some kind of equity share that was converted into tokens or something like that. It’s always been pure in that sense. We’re able to skip around a lot of the questions that other token projects have at this point in time. Hopefully, the connection is deep. We try to keep the token holders very front of mind when we’re doing things.

Yeah, well said. From my notes, it looks like 30% of the total supply has been burned. I don’t know if that number is entirely accurate, but—

It is accurate. It’s a little misleading, in the spirit of being honest. I would love to say that it’s at 30%. What happened is that we did a DAO vote about 2 years ago. The initial supply for the JUP token was 10 billion tokens, and the float was relatively low, as was common practice at the time.

Relatively early—at least 18 months ago—we heard feedback from the community that this supply overhang was a bit scary. Again, we don’t have investors, so those were just purely unallocated tokens: half for the community, half for team growth initiatives, and all those other things. We did a DAO vote and decided that we would burn 30% of the tokens equally across all allocations.

The team burned 30% of theirs, the DAO burned 30% of theirs, and 30% of the growth incentives and so on were also burned. Since then, we’ve burned another few percent of the total supply. So, it’s probably closer to something like 35%, but I’m not 1,000% sure of the exact number.

I’m just looking this up now, so I might get some of this wrong, but the fully diluted valuation is around $1.3 billion to $1.35 billion. CoinGecko has this thing called outstanding token value, which takes into account all these things, like burned tokens, and that’s sitting at around $749 million, with a market cap at roughly $649 million, give or take, depending on when you’re viewing this.

I think, if I’m getting those numbers right, it’s super interesting, and it actually makes JUP look even more attractive. But again, I should look at outstanding token value a bit more and make sure I’m understanding it correctly.

Those are directionally correct. Again, I can’t speak to the exact numbers off the top of my head, but here’s the alpha again. The majority of tokens—something like, I believe, about 1.1 billion—are entirely unallocated. We publish transparency reports, so people can go check these multisigs themselves after this is done, but it’s something like 1 billion-plus tokens in the strategic reserve.

They’re not allocated to team members or to anybody. We have a very profitable business that we’re very excited about, and we don’t see any immediate need to use any large chunk of those tokens on things that might be coming up. Similarly, there are a lot of tokens in the DAO. The DAO generally does not like to release those tokens.

We had a vote that postponed our airdrop, which would have released 700 million tokens. Those are back in the DAO, along with a few hundred million other tokens. Call it roughly 1 billion. It’s hard to see how those are going to get emitted in the near term. Possibly they could if the DAO wants to do another airdrop or something like that in the future, but the real alpha is to look not just at what is circulating, but at what is likely to even become circulating.

The last and key point—and I think this is really something that I should have said earlier—is something that differentiates JUP’s profile as a token from others. This year, we have net-zero emissions. We passed a DAO vote earlier this year. It was a painful DAO vote, and a lot of people had to make sacrifices—the team as well as the community—but we were unified at something like 78% in favor of net-zero emissions.

That meant no airdrop, fast vesting of some key stakeholders who already had tokens allocated to them, and then monitoring their wallets and buying back anything that they sell in proportion. The team vesting was also shifted. Those tokens are not being emitted from the strategic reserve as much. It’s a little bit more complicated to get into right now, but largely, those tokens are not being emitted.

The bottom line is that, when you factor in the buybacks, it’s net-zero emissions. There are very few tokens around our age—2 or 3 years old—that have that. Some of the older tokens from the 2016 cycle are past that, but for the next generation of tokens, I think that really separates Jupiter from everything else. You don’t see that same kind of supply overhang, or that constant drumbeat of supply hitting the market in the bear market, that you do with others.

Okay. So, Kash, we also want to take a bit of time here. We’re coming closer to the end, but we want to talk about growth. I want to know what you’re excited about for Jupiter’s growth trajectory. It could be perp expansion, lending expansion, the continued growth of JupUSD, institutional adoption—maybe it’s all of the above.

Or is it new products? Is it mobile? Where’s your head at with, “Hey, this is really exciting to me”? What are the top 2 or 3 things that you’re getting really excited about with Jupiter?

It’s like picking my favorite children. It’s a tough thing. I’m excited about a lot of things, but I will limit it to 3 out of respect for the time that we have here.

So, number 1, I think, is Jupiter Lend DEX coming up. I think that is going to come out. I can't give a specific date right now, but it's in the very near future. I also don't want to front-run the comms announcement.

That's going to bring newfound capital efficiency to Solana. It's going to bring additional yield to depositors, and it's going to fundamentally shift how the trading environment works on Solana, since spreads will be much tighter and slippage will be much less. It's going to be something that's really good for everybody. I think it's going to drive quite a bit of TVL and revenue for Jupiter as well.

The second thing is prediction markets. As I say, there are no really good prediction markets on Solana right now. That's the difficult truth. Certainly nothing close to the scale of Kalshi and Polymarket. I think that's really where the opportunity is, especially with the World Cup coming up.

We have some very fun plans for the World Cup. Don't kill me, T, if you see this, but I think they should drive substantial amounts of volume, as well as revenue and user retention. The third I'll say is our other credit product that's coming out, which is Offer Book, an order book-based lending protocol—borrow-intensive and lending-intensive, effectively.

It's extremely useful for memecoin people who want leverage and can't get it anywhere else. It's extremely useful for long-tail RWAs, or even just new RWAs that don't have oracles and deep DEX liquidity and so forth. It turns any idle asset into a productive asset.

From a revenue perspective, the fees are quite generous because the APYs scale. If you lend stablecoins, you're lending at 5% against whatever Bitcoin. Against a memecoin, I'm lending at closer to 30% to 40%, and our fees scale according to the APY that people are paying. I think that's going to end up being a growth driver if it works, though it's a little bit more speculative.

Sorry, I have to say the fourth one. Apologies—I know I said 3 only. Jupiter Spend, I think, is going to be a very, very big deal. We have ways that we're going to integrate it with the lending markets, as I alluded to earlier, that I think are going to open up some primitives that people have not really seen in crypto so far.

15. Jupiter Spend monthly volume is growing fast

I think that's going to open the door to a lot more stablecoin spending, with additional banking-like products added on top of it. I'm very excited about that. I could give 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10, but I'm going to stop right now, because that's already too many.

You should be excited about that, though. Those are all products I think we need. With Jupiter Spend, how do we get access to that? I normally go to jup.ag and then click on the More tab for the countless products you've talked through. But Jupiter Spend—is that something that's still off in the distance?

No. If you get Jupiter Mobile today on iOS or Android and sign up, you should be able to get KYC'd. I believe you guys are in the U.S., right? You should be able to get KYC'd. Of course, send me a DM if there are any issues on that side. If you're in a country that we support and you have an issue, feel free to DM me directly at @KashDhanda, and I will help get it resolved. For listeners to the DeFi Dad podcast, I'm happy to do that.

You sign up, and it takes anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours, or maybe a maximum of a day, to get approved. Once it's done, you deposit your stablecoins. You can use it with Apple Pay or Google Pay. It's a named account, which is actually very interesting, so you can do bank deposits and bank withdrawals.

Here's the best part: on-ramping and off-ramping are entirely free right now. If you have funds that you want to on-ramp or off-ramp, this is the best way to do it—totally for free, and from a named account in your name, so the transfer will very likely be approved as well. That's how you get it: just Jupiter Mobile.

So cool. You guys have so many products, I can't keep track of all of them. Do you have any numbers on Jupiter Spend off the top of your head in terms of monthly spending volume, or anything like that, just to show growth over the last few months?

Let me quickly pull up my Grafana dashboard and see what it is. I don't know if I can say the exact numbers, but I can definitely talk in terms of the month-over-month growth we're seeing. All right, Grafana is taking a little second to load. We have so many products that it takes our stats dashboards a while to actually load.

From March to April, I can tell you that we grew 749%, and from February to March, it was 300%. We're looking at, on average, about 300% or 400% per month in growth since the beginning of the year. We're only halfway through the month, but we're growing again in May.

The numbers are going up and to the right. It's a small base, obviously, since it's a new product and there are only certain markets enabled, but triple-digit growth per month is what we're looking at right now. We'll see how long that can sustain, but it'll be double-digit growth at least for a while from here.

16. Closing

I think this is a great place for us to start wrapping up. We really enjoyed our last interview with you, and I feel like this is such a great part 2 to that, again more focused on the business behind Jupiter. You guys are growing like crazy, and we're really excited for what's ahead here.

It seems like you guys are really preparing for that next uptrend, and you've got all the products here. It's a DeFi super app, so hopefully folks get a better picture of why they should be digging into Jupiter. I do want to remind our listeners they can learn more about Jupiter by going to jupp.ag. They should follow Jupiter Exchange on Twitter X. Follow Cash D H A N D A on Twitter as well. We'll put that all into the show notes so you can, you know, again, stay up to date with all of the Jupiter products. And then, Cash, just thank you so much for your time. This was fantastic. We love having you on the show, and we'd love to have you back in the future. I want to give you the final word before we go.

Well, first, thanks to both of you guys for having me back on. This is always one of the best podcasts that I go on. I really like the questions—they're very insightful. I appreciate that you guys do your homework, and you're fun guys to talk to as well. You will not regret it. I promise you. Just go download those, and your life's going to be much better. Thanks everyone for tuning in. To stay up to date with future episodes, plus get expert tips, strategies, and exclusive content, subscribe to our free newsletter at the-edge.xyz.