# Why One Internet Pioneer Thinks the Original Model Broke The a16z Show · 2026-10-01 · 45 min · https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmDrbHOh7Bo ## Transcript Barrett Lyon We are currently standing at a truly critical turning point. Large-scale, literally coin-operated intelligent systems are being born. The Internet is quite stagnant in terms of protocol design. There isn’t much new, and everything is built on top of what already exists. I’m trying to change that very situation. Joel de la Garza As you mentioned, you’ve established a temporary method that allows people to connect and converse without leaving a record. Barrett Lyon The real problem lies in apps like WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage, and Telegram. These apps pretend to be sending a message to someone, but in reality, they’re sending it to a server. Whose server is that? That’s the point. Joel de la Garza It’s regrettable that, at this critical turning point for the future of our country and technology, conversations are taking place that appear to be manipulated for some purpose. Barrett Lyon It really feels like it’s been manipulated. In my opinion, for future technology, we need to build this kind of infrastructure right now. Joel de la Garza ### Barrett's engine failure over Oakland If we’re messing things up, today we have Barrett Lyon, perhaps one of the most interesting figures in the technology industry. Barrett Lyon I have so many stories to share. Joel de la Garza Every time we meet, I’m always amazed, because the new stories you tell make everything I’ve done so far look insignificant. The most interesting story I heard recently was one I had never heard before, and I think it was probably when we invested in your previous company. Since you’re a pilot and have a pilot’s license, you said you decided to optimize your life through flying, right? I heard that you had an unpleasant experience on your way back after the meeting with us. Barrett Lyon Yes. One day, I was driving to work in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I realized that a trip that used to take 15 minutes was now taking almost 45 minutes. My family lives in the Tahoe area, so I thought, “I could get there in about the same amount of time by plane. I can just commute that way.” That was before working from home became official because of COVID-19. I had to go in person to get a physical examination. Joel de la Garza So you started flying, and you flew every day? Barrett Lyon Yes, that’s right. I had flown about 1,300 hours on a Sirus aircraft. One day, after finishing a meeting, I boarded the plane and took off from San Carlos. The engine started having problems around Auckland Airport. I thought water might have gotten into the fuel, so I climbed, and it seemed fine after passing the Bravo level. But at that very moment, the engine stopped completely. Joel de la Garza What were you thinking at that moment? Barrett Lyon I texted my friends, “Guys, it’s Bisang. I love you.” I wasn’t sure what to do. I thought, “Just declare a state of emergency and think, ‘Okay, where should I crash so it doesn’t harm people?’” I tried to think through my options. I found a field, but it turned out I was at a fairly high altitude, and there was a huge airport right next to it. Joel de la Garza Was it Oakland? Barrett Lyon No, it wasn’t Oakland. It was Buchanan Field. I can’t quite remember the name of the city. It was a huge old military airport—Alameda? No, it was a different place, the airport on the other side of the mountain range. I think it was Buchanan Field, but anyway, I landed there. Before that, I went toward the field and asked myself, “Okay, I have a parachute. Should I deploy the ballistic parachute?” From the crash reports I’ve read, the reason pilots die is that they don’t use their parachutes. The airport was right over there, but I was still in flight. The real irony of that airplane is that, despite being technically the safest airplane in history, it’s involved in the most crashes because people don’t use the safety devices. Joel de la Garza Right. Barrett Lyon Of course, the safety device works, but it can also damage the airplane. A rocket is launched from the tail section, tearing off parts of the airplane and completely destroying it, so there’s no guarantee that you can land safely. The seat has a shock absorber, so it absorbs some of the impact when it hits the ground. Joel de la Garza How quickly does all of this happen? How many minutes would it be? Or might it be shorter than that? Barrett Lyon It might be shorter than that. Anyway, I made a landing call, landed, and drove straight into the temporary parking lot. I was a bit flustered and bewildered when I got off the plane. You know those big fire trucks? There was a really big one. It looked like it had been made by a child, but it was enormous. The firefighter got out of the truck and grabbed my hand. At that moment, a sudden wave of fear washed over me. I realized that this person was the one who was going to put out the fire. It was dizzying. Then I thought, “What do I do now? I have to get home somehow.” I didn’t want to rent a car or drive home myself. With that thought in mind, I decided there was no need to worry anymore. The danger was too great. I kept that plane for a while and eventually took it to Las Vegas to sell it. Joel de la Garza Did you figure out what the problem was or what had caused it? Barrett Lyon Yes. Three really strange things happened at the same time. One was an air-intake control valve—a kind of lever—where a piece of metal broke off and got sucked into the air-intake manifold. It went down to the oil pan, and I think it got stuck in cylinders 3 and 6. That caused an electrical problem related to the spark, and that spark was controlled by the newly installed electronic fuel injector (electronic ignition system). It stopped working. The ignition failed halfway, and at the same time, the backup magneto on the opposite side also stopped working. Joel de la Garza I see. Barrett Lyon It was like a series of strange breakdowns occurred. The strange thing is that the magneto worked very slightly on the ground. The engine would start, but as the RPM went up, it would just shut off. Anyway, that was the reason. It took some time to figure out the cause. It was quite an interesting experience on the way home. Joel de la Garza That could happen. Now you know why the Pope kisses the ground when he gets off the plane, right? Barrett Lyon Yes. If I were to have another airplane in my life, I would choose one with fewer moving parts. Joel de la Garza It would be better to have reserve pilots and reserve systems, though. Barrett Lyon Yes, and the more you fly, the higher the risk becomes. Joel de la Garza I think that incident triggered various things. We gathered today to talk about your new business. It seems like a very unusual thing for you—something more deeply related to your life and more important. So, shall we talk a little about Docs.net? Could you explain why you decided to create Docs.net? First, could you tell me what Docs.net is and what motivated you? I’d also appreciate it if you could share your thoughts on why it’s important and why you created it now. ### What Doxxnet actually is Barrett Lyon Yes, that’s good. First, let me explain the name. When I was young, my hacker nickname was Docs. I started a business called Docs.net with a friend when I was in high school, before cloud services came out. It was a business that rented servers and provided user accounts for a fee. I made a pretty good profit during my high school years. Joel de la Garza Were these shell accounts? Barrett Lyon Yes, they were shell accounts. I sold shell accounts for $5 a month, and there were as many as 1,000 users. The service offered various features, and people liked it, so a small community formed for a while. However, after graduating from high school and closing my business, I started working. I left the domain as it was. I’m also very interested in protocol design, and I find it intriguing that the Internet is somewhat stagnant in terms of protocol design. There isn’t much new, and everything is built on top of what already exists. As I watched censorship intensify, people’s privacy being violated, and various other things happening, the emergence of VPNs made it really interesting to try creating a kind of alternative network. A VPN is a network designed from the ground up to protect people from advertisers, trackers, malware, and foreign forces attempting to detect user activity. The original promise of the Internet was that it was a marketplace of tremendous ideas—a market without restrictions and without censorship. It seems that many of the early founders of the Internet were extreme advocates of freedom of expression. Joel de la Garza That was for a very specific user base, but as you mentioned, the situation has changed dramatically over the past few years, hasn’t it? Barrett Lyon Yes, and now it has fallen into the hands of several companies. China is a good example, with companies like China Netcom and China Telecom. Joel de la Garza Where is China Netcom? Barrett Lyon Anyway, they’re using that network to manipulate the entire population and force a different decision-making process upon people. The Internet was originally designed with a more open concept, so reviving that openness is one of the things I wanted to do. Think about the pre-Internet era—that is, a very old wireless network like ALOHAnet. It was wireless communication using packet modems and similar technology. Now that we can use really powerful Wi-Fi at the edge, there’s a tremendous opportunity to create better mesh protocols and peer-to-peer networks. One of the biggest problems with the entire Internet is carrier-grade NAT. NAT is destroying the ability of applications to perform cool functions. I’m trying to solve this very problem. Joel de la Garza All right. ### When censorship comes home to the US Barrett Lyon Another interesting point is that we always talk about foreign governments restricting Internet access. They mainly mention China and Russia. However, recently I went somewhere where a customer-identity-verification system was being implemented, and access to certain websites was being blocked. Joel de la Garza If it is a website they define as inappropriate, it could be anything. It could be a health-related website or any other website. So we are witnessing censorship becoming increasingly severe even within the United States. Barrett Lyon Yes, it is slowly spreading in the United States as well, but it is proceeding in a somewhat strange way. There are many cases where people ask the network to resolve identity-verification issues. But the network does not perform identity-verification functions, does it? The network is not holding a hammer and driving nails. An IP address is not a driver’s license. It does not make sense to restrict network usage based on things like age. That is a problem that needs to be approached from a different layer. If you want to restrict usage for a specific reason, you need to do it in a very different way rather than leaving it to the network. Such movements have started to appear in the United States as well and are already emerging in other countries. In addition to age restrictions, there was an incident not long ago in which Google, Cisco, and Umbrella filed lawsuits against French telecommunications companies. Even though they are not based in France, a regulation was introduced there to block more than 100 piracy sites. Then they said, “No, we are going to launch a scorched-earth operation. We are going to blockade all of France.” If you do that, the repercussions will inevitably be greater. If a local information provider mistakenly identifies a user’s location, that user will also be subject to the same policy. It is really terrible. Those kinds of classification problems are always the worst. Joel de la Garza For example, we were reviewing an investment opportunity in a company that builds chatbots focused on partnerships or collaborations, but half of the classification engines classified the site as adult content. This is a legitimate online dating and marriage site. It is not as though they are doing anything illegal. Barrett Lyon Yes, we also had a bit of trouble because of Dox. I think it is because the word “Dox” has two x’s in it. Joel de la Garza Ah, so you are heading that way now. Barrett Lyon Yes. However, in the end, it worked to our advantage. Claude recognized us, so after we completed the proper registration process and applied, everything became available. It was really good. Joel de la Garza ### Why VPNs don't cut it I think that as this information totalitarianism gradually spreads, various products that we are all familiar with have come into existence. VPNs are probably the most common example. So I think it would be good to hear in more detail why existing tools are insufficient, why Dox was created, and how it differs from existing tools. It would be good to share our thoughts on that process in more depth. Barrett Lyon It seems like VPNs mostly just serve as connection and exit points. They rent a server from a landlord, install software on it, and access the internet through an encrypted connection. Then all requests and operations on the internet are carried out through that server. This is intended to resolve the issue of using IP addresses as identities, as we discussed earlier. You could say it is a kind of workaround. People also think that this method is more helpful for security. Of course, you could argue against it, but it is actually a very basic principle. Such a network can be adjusted in real time. By applying APIs to everything, you can say, “Okay, here is an API that the agent can use. The agent can build the entire network.” A VPN protocol is merely a means of accessing that area. Within it, you can build a whole mesh network, whether you call it a “closed ecosystem,” a “parallel internet,” or whatever else. There are 196 different domains that do not exist on the internet. You can process all kinds of tasks—registering domains, leasing IP addresses, leasing mesh-network or public addresses, and creating policies—in milliseconds. The inside is a completely different ecosystem. Furthermore, we were able to develop a working P2P application by using that system. All app-based functions, such as phone calls, video calls, and chatting, are executed through the mesh network, and all the data is encrypted. No information such as phone numbers, email addresses, or names is exposed. It is a truly amazing thing. Joel de la Garza This is because both of us are quite well-versed in security. As you know, I have been told countless times that when having personal conversations, I should never do so where there are batteries or electrical signals. So what you are saying is that they created a temporary method that allows people to connect and chat without leaving any records, right? Barrett Lyon Yes. When creating an account, you have to prove your identity by solving a simple puzzle. Once you complete that, you receive a token, and that token is yours. You can change the token, or delete the account and create a new one. Once you create an account, you can generate a certificate and share it with your friends. In reality, you do not realize that you are doing it. It just says “Invite Friend” and looks like a regular chat, but the users are actually exchanging encrypted information with each other. You also receive additional permissions. In my opinion, the key lesson of PKI is that if you tell people “PKI,” it does not work properly. We need to abstract that layer. Actually, it is not PKI—it is private-key infrastructure. It is not a public key. Let us assume that you and your friend decide, “Okay, let’s trust each other.” Then mobile phones can communicate directly with each other through the mesh network. Suddenly, cool file-transfer features with no file-size limits become possible. The real problem lies with WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage, and Telegram. By the way, Telegram is a bit creepy. All these apps disguise themselves as though you are sending something directly to someone else. In reality, they send the file to a server, and that server allows someone else to retrieve it. When you upload a file, you are actually uploading it to a server. The upload infrastructure is not always well distributed, and the speed can be slow. For example, when uploading files from one region to another within the United States, the upload speed can be slow. Using our application solves all of these problems. No intermediary or server is needed at all. Your mobile phone acts as a server and sends files directly to your friend. It is fast and works very well. Even 20 GB files can be transferred between branches through a private network, and the latency is very low. It has up to 3 to 4 levels of encryption applied. Joel de la Garza I see. It also has quantum mechanics-level security, and it is a really useful tool. Barrett Lyon Putting all of this together, it could be said that Doxnet is like a massive collection of tools for freedom of expression and freedom from surveillance. Joel de la Garza ### The FBI's trojan messaging app Yes, we should talk about this part as well. That is exactly the interesting point. As you mentioned, Telegram is a bit spooky. Barrett Lyon I think all VPN services are like that. It is a bit of a stretch to say that all VPNs are like this, but many VPN services seem very creepy. I do not mean to criticize any specific company, but the example that resonates with me the most is something I saw in the news recently. Organized criminals have been arrested worldwide. I heard that a few were arrested in Australia and the United States as well. It turned out that the FBI had created a secure messaging app and sold it exclusively to organized-crime groups. These people said, “Do not trust Signal because the NSA uses it. This app is safe and has only 5 users.” That is what they said. Eventually, they were all indicted, and I think most of them are in prison now. Joel de la Garza So you saw these kinds of activities in the United States as well, right? Barrett Lyon If you search for VPNs in the App Store, you will probably find about 50 VPNs. Joel de la Garza Yes, most of them are overseas. Barrett Lyon Just because something is free does not mean it is. Joel de la Garza Yes, that is correct. If you do not pay, you become the product. It means being eaten alive. Barrett Lyon The United States has excellent laws. We can use those laws to protect people. The dark net is based in the United States, but there is also a Swiss company responsible for European operations. Therefore, the operations of the 2 regions are separated. Other regions operate in this way as well. Joel de la Garza So in this kind of situation, corporate governance is actually important. Honestly, I am reluctant to have my data handed over to a company that does not talk about its ownership or its reason for existence, other than privacy protection. Barrett Lyon We consciously decided to be very transparent about what we do, the people involved, and why we made those decisions. This also helps to revitalize the community. Joel de la Garza Yes, I know that too. The thing is, there are suspicious VPN companies. Barrett Lyon Yes, that is right. The funny thing is that we like talking about the state or intelligence agencies. Agencies like the CIA and the NSA all look cool, do they not? However, in reality, there is a much lower level of risk. For example, during the early cryptocurrency craze, there were cases in which money was withdrawn from people’s accounts, and those people were using services located in other countries. It turned out that in some countries, national intelligence agencies and organized crime are intertwined. So I could see these things mixing together. Joel de la Garza When people look at VPN policies, they often say “no logging,” so the question arises: Whose servers are those? Are they owned by a famous VPN company, or are they leased? If they are leased, from whom did the company borrow them? How does it handle the data? What is its policy? That raises a question. Barrett Lyon There is such a dark side to the VPN industry. Personally, it wasn't easy to learn about these aspects because I didn't have the capacity to quickly build infrastructure worldwide. What I eventually realized was that you cannot set policies if the equipment is not your own. It's just impossible. The next policy layer is the telecommunications operators and interconnections beyond the cage. As you know, it took a tremendous amount of effort to resolve the hidden side of service-type bare metal. I think this is one of the big differences between us and many other people: We own the entire stack, from the software to the wiring and routing. Even all the AI components that run it are on our own hardware. Joel de la Garza ### Running a network with AI, no sysadmin One of the funny things about when we first talked about this was that you were very distrustful of large-scale reasoning and AI providers. You built your own AI stack. Barrett Lyon Yes. GPUs are insufficient, and it's difficult to secure data-processing capabilities. Joel de la Garza Now everyone is using data centers. How were you able to accomplish all of this in just 6 months? Barrett Lyon It was done very efficiently. We have built 26 sites around the world so far, all equipped with a redundant routing system. Joel de la Garza How many employees does the company have? It seems there are about 12 people in total. Wow, that's really amazing. Barrett Lyon Yes. We have neither a network administrator nor a system administrator. Everything is handled by AI, and it's actually working very well because I understand the situation well. The good thing is that we don't have thousands of employees with access to our network. Joel de la Garza Yes, that's right. It means that the impact within the corporate structure is very minimal. That's really impressive. There's a part that we don't often talk about because it makes us uncomfortable: the severity of insider threats. Barrett Lyon Yes. Joel de la Garza I would like to point out that the most serious cyberattacks are always related to insider threats. You're saying that using the agent you just mentioned can eliminate a significant portion of those risks, right? Barrett Lyon Yes. This system operates in a secure environment on its own and does not leak data to large AI companies. All data, such as contacts and inferences, is processed internally. Security is strict, and all equipment is monitored by cameras. No one accesses or touches the equipment without permission. Joel de la Garza Is there an agent that checks the camera footage? Barrett Lyon Strictly speaking, we don't verify it directly, but the camera company that produced the agent does. Joel de la Garza Ah, I see. Barrett Lyon Yes. An alarm sounds if movement is detected or suspicious circumstances are found. We even considered installing lasers at some locations. Joel de la Garza Just like Mission: Impossible. Why wouldn't it work? It looks like it would be fun. Barrett Lyon We need at least 1 cool data center to take people to, right? Joel de la Garza Yes, that's the only way to leave a deep impression on people. Places like the Switch data center in Las Vegas. There are also Jeeps equipped with .50-caliber machine guns. There should be something like that. Barrett Lyon I really like lasers, so I went ahead with this project anyway. Simply put, we even looked into the laser operating switch. I set it so that an alarm would go off if the laser beam was cut off. However, the problem was that we couldn't turn off the lights in the data center, so we wouldn't be able to see that amazing laser show. There shouldn't be any dust, and no fine particles should be floating around. Joel de la Garza ### The data center misinformation campaign Yes, things like talcum powder cannot be brought in. I don't like that kind of thing. Let's create smoke in the data center for a laser show. Barrett Lyon Another thing that drives me crazy is that people don't understand data centers at all. Joel de la Garza Ah, that's right. It's really ridiculous. You must have seen things like that in the mainstream media, right? Barrett Lyon Ah, yes. Like, “Data centers drink water.” That makes no sense. Data centers have existed for a very long time, and while water needs to be replenished when equipment breaks down and evaporation occurs, they don't operate without water. Joel de la Garza That's really amazing. If you were to rank the most impressive machines created by humans, commercial aircraft would probably be number 1, right? Barrett Lyon Second place would probably be data centers. It's a really incredibly sophisticated and closed system. Joel de la Garza Yes, although the data center itself looks like just an ordinary building. Barrett Lyon Yes. Another surprising thing is that there are sounds that have never been heard outside of a data center. It might be something like a horror movie, but I saw people watching the video and saying, “Look at that hell.” It turned out the audio in the video had been dubbed from an internal recording. Joel de la Garza I think people don't know it's fake because they aren't smart enough to notice. Barrett Lyon Yes, that's right. It's contained within every data center. People are being manipulated because of these data centers. Joel de la Garza Isn't that surprising? I think that as time goes by, it will be revealed that all of this was manipulated by certain groups or interest organizations. Barrett Lyon Yes, but it is quite interesting to realize later, after understanding the situation, that people were completely wrong. Joel de la Garza You've visited over 20 data centers in the last few months, haven't you? Have you ever seen people protesting outside? Barrett Lyon No, I didn't see anything. Most data centers, especially large data center complexes like the one in Virginia, have nothing but a single rabbit in the field. There's just a large building and a spacious parking lot. Joel de la Garza But that area is one of the wealthiest counties in the United States thanks to the data center, isn't it? Barrett Lyon That's right, because jobs are created. The people working there aren't getting paid peanuts, and high-tech talent is also being drawn in. Joel de la Garza Infrastructure is important too. Infrastructure is essential to everything we do, isn't it? Barrett Lyon Yes. Joel de la Garza If you're near a data center, the internet speed is faster and various things work better. And while it may vary depending on the data center, the claim that data centers use water for drinking is entirely fabricated. Barrett Lyon Yes. There was a Switch data center near Reno, and they built a big lake there. So people think that the data center uses the lake water for drinking. Joel de la Garza Yes. The reality is that, for example, if the chiller breaks down and you have to drain all the water from a sealed system, you have to refill it. Barrett Lyon Yes. You have to put it in the loop. Joel de la Garza Yes. Barrett Lyon So, anyway, I work in a building like this, and I find conspiracy theorists quite interesting. It feels like a typical conspiracy theory, just like people who believe the moon landing was faked. However, I believe this is a very important turning point for the future of our country's technology and for society as a whole. Joel de la Garza It feels like this conversation was manipulated for some purpose. It seems very fabricated. Barrett Lyon In my opinion, the future of our technology depends on building this infrastructure now. If we weaken this infrastructure, we're making the wrong decision. Joel de la Garza You're making the wrong decision in your Instagram post. Barrett Lyon Ah, yes. It's the same with TikTok, right? Who knows where such content is created? Something like a ridiculous music video opposing data centers. Joel de la Garza ### Ad trackers know you better than your spouse Yes. It seems like public opinion is being manipulated by things like that. This is the second reason. We talked about intelligence agencies or scary governments, didn't we? But now we're talking about a scheme to manipulate public opinion for commercial gain. That's exactly the second reason you created Docks, which is related to advertising. Barrett Lyon Yes. People think the NSA is incredibly sophisticated, but advertisers are probably far ahead of them. Joel de la Garza Now we can see that intelligence agencies are using data brokers and employing the techniques of advertising agencies. Barrett Lyon Yes, that's why every app has a tracker. WhatsApp has dit.whatsapp.net. Even Apple has something called Apple Telemetry. Joel de la Garza Whether you call it telemetry or metadata, it can be called a tracking tool anyway. You can block it, but apps or most websites don't have problems because of telemetry data. The rest of the websites load normally. Barrett Lyon A certain controversial wealthy person said this to me: “So what? Nobody's going to know that I bought underwear at Target.com.” Then I said, “Well, actually, it's not just 1 problem. Everything is a problem. If you combine all the tracking happening on every app or website you use, that data accumulates. Without knowing who stores it or where it's sold, when you aggregate all that data, they can tell you whether you drink coffee, what time you wake up in the morning, how much you earn, where you shop, and even how often you buy things. “If you're facing childbirth, divorce, or other major life events, they might even find out before your spouse does.” Joel de la Garza Yes, that's right. Barrett Lyon Turning off those features isn't a problem at all. In fact, I prefer them to be turned off. I really hate that kind of tracking. Dismantling these tracking features is a crucial part of apps and networks. It's not just an app problem; it's a problem for the entire network. Joel de la Garza It's about getting rid of those things. It's about returning to an internet where you can connect with objects and create things, just like the old internet, without being monitored by advertisers, the government, or anyone else. Barrett Lyon However, I think we're currently standing at a really important turning point. coin-operated intelligent systems have appeared on a large scale, haven't they? We can deploy millions of units, and preventative measures are also possible. It's like the proverb that millions of monkeys are holding an infinite number of typewriters. So we're facing a world with more telemetry data, where every action is tracked. If you combine intelligence with that, you can reach a truly terrifying conclusion. Joel de la Garza Yes, you can put all this information into the LLM (Local Lifecycle) and say, “Please tell me about this person.” Barrett Lyon You get the answer. I think you can do really effective targeting even against things like data centers, right? Joel de la Garza Yes. When you see large-scale movements happening systematically across multiple platforms, you think, “Oh, that’s pretty clever.” Barrett Lyon Yes. What people should be targeting isn’t data centers, but tracking systems. Life would be much easier if things like ad tracking really disappeared. Joel de la Garza Yes. The key is to revive the vibe the internet used to have and then see how far we can develop that. If we utilize larger resources, we could create protocols that don’t exist yet. Barrett Lyon Yes, that’s right. The reason the internet succeeded was because it was free. Joel de la Garza Thank you for trying to make it free again. Barrett Lyon I tried, but you still have to pay me. Joel de la Garza ### Prolexic, Russian hackers, and MoMA Yes, that’s right. Just kidding. That’s cool. I don’t know if you know this, but we met a long time ago. I dug through some old files, and it turns out you did a lot of work related to DDoS bots starting in the early 2000s. So I’m going to drive up the stock price. There was TFN, TFN2K, and, of course, large-scale DDoS (Denial of Service) attacks. You took the lead in developing solutions to prevent such attacks at Prolexic, didn’t you? How did you get started? Barrett Lyon In fact, it goes back to the dark net era. My friends attacked my server when I was in high school, so I had to research better ways to protect the server—techniques and tricks to survive DDoS attacks. I started organizing ways to survive, and I presented them at SANS, which ended up in Google search results. From then on, people started contacting me. Then I started dealing with real cybercrimes: threats, for example, involving attacks on 2 watch companies during the Christmas sale. There were also cases where all the gambling sites were paralyzed right before the Super Bowl started. As such incidents became increasingly serious, I established a company to protect businesses from these attacks. In my opinion, a large-scale system was needed. We needed the largest and most expensive equipment, but not everyone could afford it, so we created it as a kind of rental service—one of the first cloud services. It was quite successful and still exists. I mean, Akamai Prolexic. Joel de la Garza Yes, that’s correct. They even kept the name exactly the same. Barrett Lyon It’s a very rare case. Later, I created DefenseNet, which became F5 Silverline. In addition to that, I worked on several other projects. I was very interested in large-scale systems and bandwidth, so I founded a company called BitGravity, which was one of the video-centric CDNs. It was specialized for transferring large files and large objects. We secured a lot of really good customers in the beginning. People understood our service, and we also developed many technologies to reduce costs. It was something people didn’t know, but when you pressed the play button, a progressive file would be downloaded and transmitted before everything was finished. There were media-management features of this kind, but scrolling to the middle of the video just ended up wasting bandwidth. Yes, that’s right. Besides, it was expensive, so we made all sorts of cool things related to video. Joel de la Garza Well, speaking of building a new network for consumers, it actually includes some features for bots as well. Barrett Lyon Actually, it contains a lot of network-related elements. I enjoy building large-scale infrastructure, so this field suits my aptitude perfectly. I like building scalable systems. However, now we’ve changed direction from being for companies to being for people. I haven’t seen many attempts like this done properly yet. I think it will be interesting to see how people adapt. Joel de la Garza The more interesting point is that your network could be subject to DDoS attacks. You’re probably ready, right? Barrett Lyon Although it’s an attack coming from the internet, it’s someone blindly approaching and attacking. I started using my network internally, but I had to deal with those stupid people. Joel de la Garza Yes. However, the truth is that even if privacy is guaranteed, laws exist, and we must obey them as much as possible. There’s another interesting point I learned from talking with you for a few years: your work has been exhibited at MoMA. Barrett Lyon Yes. 2 pieces are on display as part of the permanent collection. It was a university project. I majored in philosophy. It might sound strange, but I studied philosophy. I studied things like aesthetics and some other subjects, but most of it was theoretical AI. Joel de la Garza Wow, I finally understand a philosophy degree. Barrett Lyon Really? It was very helpful. The reason I started mapping the network was because I was in the middle of a penetration test as a penetration tester. It involves hacking another company, so it’s ethical hacking. I thought the easiest way to start was to look inside the company. You create a network diagram to figure out where everything is, how it works, and what needs to be where. I started automating that. Then, one day at lunchtime, I made a bet with my friends that I could map the entire internet using the same technology. It started with a $50 bet, and I was almost certain I would lose. But I was hit by a car while riding my bicycle. I couldn’t walk. Suddenly, life slowed down so much that I sat down and started coding, and that became the Opte project. That project went on to tour not only at MoMA but also at places like the Boston Museum of Science and many other locations around the world. I also made an animation. It’s a really great project. It received a lot of attention not simply because it looked cool, but because the video contained truly interesting history. All sorts of things happen, such as companies going bankrupt and collapsing. Luckily, I had the opportunity to talk with Vint Cerf, and it was really great to be able to ask him my questions directly. Joel de la Garza That’s really cool. Now you’ve accomplished the 2 hardest things in the world. One is founding a successful IT company, and the other is becoming a successful artist. Becoming a successful artist is probably much harder than starting an IT company. Barrett Lyon Yes, that’s right. Actually, I felt a bit strange. I went to the opening at MoMA, and it was like a huge party. I was also one of the participating artists, and my work was displayed in a new exhibition, which was a really wonderful experience. There was a DJ, we drank alcohol, and curators came too. I was able to look around a few other interesting places owned by MoMA, and it was a really wonderful experience. But the next day, I felt like I had fake syndrome. I was really depressed. I thought, “Wow, will I ever feel like an artist again? This was really just a coincidence.” I was able to have that experience again, though it was a really strange and surreal moment. I’m probably the only person who can say that in the technology field. Joel de la Garza Yes, it’s interesting. Barrett Lyon I have many artist friends who are much more talented than me, and they all ask, “How did you get into MoMA?” Joel de la Garza Yes, I’m curious how this happened. Plus, it’s really cool that it was included in the permanent collection. Barrett Lyon Yes, it’s 1 in hundreds or thousands. Sometimes I forget. I even forgot about the book. Joel de la Garza That’s right. We haven’t talked about the book yet. Do you want to talk about it? Barrett Lyon Dealing with that story is fine. I guess I should add this to the list of absurd stories. I keep forgetting that I have it, too. Recently, there’s been an AI-based webcam that monitors boats in Miami. It operates 24 hours a day. I’ve had it installed for almost a year, and there’s a small chat community there, too. One of them found out who I was and not long ago said, “I just finished reading the book about you.” That’s what they said. So I said, “What did you say?” “What do you mean?” “Ah, right. You figured it out.” Then I said, “So, is that book about you, and what is it about?” I think it’s about the beginning of Prolexic and tracking down Russian cybercriminals. In particular, there were a few former employees who severely threatened and harmed our clients. We couldn’t take it anymore and decided, “This can’t go on like this.” We ruined Christmas because of customer service and network outages, but these people were real criminals. They weren’t just simple hackers. They engaged in human trafficking and drug smuggling and committed other crimes as a side job. They were doing something suspicious. They were real criminals. I think they were sentenced to about 8 years of hard labor and went to prison. I don’t know what happened after that, but we went to Russia and lost our way. We were in Moscow for a while, and we detected some very interesting signals. Then it was, “We have to leave right now.” So we left. The entire book is a story covering everything that happened during that time. The really strange thing is that, at the time, it all seemed ordinary, but looking back, I think, “Wow, it was really chaotic.” Joel de la Garza That’s right. As I say, every time we talk, we hear a new story. Let’s stop talking about Burning Man. We could make a whole episode out of just that. When was the first Burning Man? Barrett Lyon It’s next week. Joel de la Garza Yes, this weekend. Are you going again this year? Barrett Lyon Yes. Joel de la Garza That’s cool. Barrett Lyon It’s probably the 14th year. It’s about that long. I don’t remember exactly. I couldn’t go a few times because of COVID, so I don’t remember which ones I skipped. Joel de la Garza And you have a famous car, right? Barrett Lyon Yes, my partner has a famous car. Pablo made the Mind Warrior, and we built Mind Warrior Camp. We were partners in that crazy project for a while, and that car went from just a fun project into a global phenomenon. People even paid to go see it. It’s really amazing. But so many things happened. What I was thinking this morning is that when you pour your passion into something, that passion creates an aura around you, and others feel it too. We were really passionate about that project, and I think that inspired a lot of people, leading us to do similar interesting projects. Joel de la Garza We aren’t going to Playa this year. Barrett Lyon Oh, you’re not going? Joel de la Garza Oh, it’s over. Are you going to do a laser show? Barrett Lyon No. Joel de la Garza Wow, okay. Barrett Lyon No. There will be something, but not mine. Pablo is bringing some cool artwork. The 2 pieces he’s bringing this year are going to be really cool. Joel de la Garza That’s cool. Barrett Lyon But there are no more mobile, super-powerful sound stages. They’re gone now. Joel de la Garza Starlink internet access is available now. What’s the atmosphere like? Barrett Lyon Actually, you could argue with that, but maybe—I suppose so. I think it’s really helpful for organizing the camp, or for things like when the art car runs out of water, because it allows for communication. Joel de la Garza Yes, that’s right. We always carry high-powered Motorola walkie-talkies. Barrett Lyon Yes, that’s correct. They even use shortwave broadcasting. Joel de la Garza Having a walkie-talkie is fun, and it brings back childhood memories. After all, it is a means of communication. It helps a lot when finding things or organizing. Barrett Lyon It also reduces the long wait times at the entrance. Joel de la Garza Yes. However, using a walkie-talkie just to sit and watch movies isn’t appropriate. You aren’t going to Burning Man to just spend time watching Netflix, are you? Barrett Lyon Absolutely not. If you use it for purposes other than local communication, that might be the wrong way to use it. But things have changed a lot. Joel de la Garza Yes, yes. That’s cool. As you said, it seems that chasing your passion leads to amazing discoveries. You are clearly someone who always chases your passion. Thank you so much for visiting. Barrett Lyon I am very satisfied with using docs.net, and thank you for creating it. It brings back the atmosphere of the old internet. Joel de la Garza It’s great to be able to do this. Barrett Lyon Yes, this is just the beginning, and thank you for trusting me so that we can build this together.