# Lessons from Napoleon, Steve Jobs, Joan of Arc & Other Leaders | Ben Wilson David Senra · 2026-10-14 · 71 min · https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js7Wf3Lj96A ## Transcript David Senra Ben Wilson has stage 4 cancer and 4 small kids. I wanted to have him on the podcast to talk about his work on the How to Take Over the World podcast, which is, in my opinion, one of the best podcasts ever created, and to talk about what it’s like dealing with terminal cancer at such a young age. I also want to ask you for help in any way that you can. Ben is a good man, and he's been dealt a bad hand. Please watch this podcast and see if you can help with medicine, introductions, or donations. It doesn't matter if you have $5 to spare or $5,000. Any little bit can help Ben's family through this devastating time. He's a good guy and a close friend. Please help in any way that you can. All right, talk to me about zeal. Ben Wilson Zeal is a word we all use, right? Nowadays, zeal means that you are— David Senra Well, first of all, “we all use”? No. I don’t think it’s in everybody’s everyday vocabulary. ### Zeal as Competitive Pain Ben Wilson Well, it means that you get excited about something, right? You’re zealous for something. But it had a very specific definition to the ancient Greeks. Aristotle defined zeal as a type of pain felt by someone when they see another person who is like them in nature, who has accomplished good or admirable things that the other person is capable of but has not yet achieved. You can see it in a lot of famous historical people. One of my favorite stories of zeal is Thomas Edison. He’s 21 years old, a telegraph operator, a young, smart guy. Those are like the programmers, tech guys of their age. He’s reading a biography of Michael Faraday, an inventor from the generation before. His roommate goes to bed. When his roommate wakes up in the morning, Edison is just finishing the biography. He stayed up all night reading it. He slams the biography shut, throws it on the table, and says, “Faraday accomplished so much. I am already 21 years old. I might live to be 50. Can I accomplish as much as he did? I am going to hustle.” That’s what he says: “I’m going to hustle.” I love that line. He really felt this pain because he recognized someone who was like him—Faraday—who had accomplished so much more than he had. He wanted to compete with him across the generations. You see that same story play out with Julius Caesar looking at Alexander the Great. You see it with Rockefeller and the generation that came before. Amos Lawrence was the first person Rockefeller really aspired to be like. It’s a very unique source of inspiration: zeal, seeing someone who came before you and wanting to compete with them because they accomplished so much. But it’s very common among the great achievers across all domains. David Senra Yeah, I love the fact that anytime you read biographies of Edison, he’s obsessed with the word “hustle.” Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra When he invented the phonograph, he was talking to some guy, and the guy asked, “If you could hear any historical figure’s voice who’s long since dead, who would you choose?” The guy asking the question says, “I would choose Jesus.” And Edison says, “I would choose Napoleon.” The guy asks, “Why Napoleon?” Edison says, “I like the hustler.” Ben Wilson “I like a hustler,” yeah. Yeah. ### Finding Your Historical Mirror David Senra What are some other examples of zeal? How do you think about the work that you do personally? You’re studying people with zeal. I guess we should back up and give people some context. I’ve been telling people for years that I think you’re one of the best podcasters in the world. How to Take Over the World is another solo history podcast. I think there’s a lot of overlap between the work you did with How to Take Over the World and the work I did with Founders. We wind up studying a lot of the same people, reading a lot of the same books. We’ve been texting back and forth for years about book recommendations. I understand the presence of zeal in these historical figures. I see it just like you do when I read these books. But how do you think about it in your own life? Ben Wilson I think I’ve made it my life mission to help people with that, because you need to find people who are like you in character to have that sort of connection. For example, if I read about Leonardo da Vinci, it’s an amazing story, and I love it. I can learn a lot, but fundamentally, I don’t feel that sense of zeal because his brain is so different from mine. It’s like studying an alien. I could never do what he did. By presenting all these different stories on How to Take Over the World, I’m hoping you can listen and think, “Okay, cool. Interesting, but not really for me.” But you find one of those stories that resonates deep in your heart and soul and gives you that moment of, “No, that person is like me. I could accomplish what they did, but I haven’t yet.” It gives you that pain and that sort of motivation to start on that journey. That’s how I think about the process. David Senra Wait, if you don’t identify with da Vinci, who do you identify with? Ben Wilson Someone like Walt Disney, for example. I read that story and think, “Ooh, I could accomplish something like that.” He’s obviously an enormously talented person, but that’s someone whose personality feels more similar to mine, so it gives me a little bit more of that feeling. David Senra Tell me more about the similarities in personality between you and Walt. Ben Wilson Walt was a very creative person, of course. That’s the first thing anyone knows about Walt Disney. But he was someone who created empires of the mind, a creative leader who got people to buy into a certain aesthetic vision. I think on some level I have that ability to do that. One of the most famous things about my podcast is the intro music that people know and get very excited about. I was able to do that myself, just messing around in GarageBand. David Senra I’m very anti-podcast intro. Ben Wilson I know you are, yeah. David Senra I’m always just like, well, we’re—It’s always the worst version of something. I think about when Steve Jobs came back to Apple. I know you’ve done a ton of episodes on Steve Jobs, too. Netbooks were really popular, and people were pressuring Steve. Even his friend Larry Ellison was like, “Why aren’t you building netbooks?” Steve was like, “Netbooks?” And he goes, “Because they’re just shitty laptops.” Instead of taking resources and building a shitty laptop, a product that shouldn’t exist, he redirected them, and they wound up inventing the iPad. I thought that shift was very interesting. That’s the way I feel about intro music for podcasts. Yours is the lone example where I’m like, “This is excellent.” I didn’t know until just now that you were the one who made that. Ben Wilson Yeah. In a fit of inspiration—and it’s funny because people early on tried to hire me to make intro music for other podcasts, and I just couldn’t do it. It was really just 60 minutes of magic. That’s how long it took me. I figured out the beat, the vocal tone I liked, grabbed a few quotes, and boom, it was done in a flash. When I think about someone like da Vinci in terms of actual artistic skill, because Walt was an okay artist— David Senra He was not a great animator. Ben Wilson —an illustrator, but he was not a great animator. David Senra Yeah. Ben Wilson Da Vinci was exceptional. He just had that kind of eye-hand coordination that I guess I lack, and the ability to perceive things in a certain way. I just don’t think I see the world the way he does. His curiosity goes in a different direction. Walt was also an extremely curious person, but he was curious about things that never were, about things that could be created. Da Vinci was curious about things as they are in the world, and I think I lean more toward that Walt Disney model of things as they could be and never have been before. David Senra Yeah, I remember poking a little fun at you through text message a few months ago because I was going to Tuscany. I said, “I read Isaacson’s biography of da Vinci,” which is great, but it’s like 800 pages. I was like, “Give me the best da Vinci book you ever read.” I was in Tuscany, and it was so bad I literally left it at the hotel. Ben Wilson Yeah, the Clark biography. David Senra Like, “Here, have this.” I was like, “Ben, what the hell was that?” It was pages and pages about the way he would draw a bent hand. I was like, “Why did you tell me to read this?” Ben Wilson I really enjoyed that part. David Senra I think that’s an interesting observation: essentially, he had the most attention to detail of things that ever existed. His notebooks are famous for all the little details in, for example, a leaf. Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra Where Walt was like, “I want to invent things and bring things to life that don’t exist,” or what you called “empires of the mind.” ### The Waste Book Method Ben Wilson Da Vinci and Isaac Newton did it in different ways, which I thought was interesting. Da Vinci would write in his notebook, “Describe,” and then he would write something, whereas Isaac Newton would write out actual questions— David Senra Hmm. Ben Wilson …of things that he wanted to answer. The thing that I love about Isaac Newton’s notebooks, which are similar to da Vinci’s in some ways, is that he called his a waste book. In other words, his trash book, his book of scraps and notes. I think everyone should have a waste book, because it really takes the pressure off what you’re thinking about, right? I don’t have to come up with anything refined or insightful. This is just where I’m going to dump my wasteful thoughts. I think it’s in those moments of unimpeded creativity that you have some of your most insightful realizations. David Senra Do you have notebooks? Do you have journals? Do you do this? Ben Wilson Tons, yeah. David Senra What’s in them? Ben Wilson Waste. A lot of trash. David Senra Work, personal? What is this, though? Ben Wilson I have one for each. I keep a journal, and I started keeping a very detailed journal since I got diagnosed with cancer. I also have a lot of creative notebooks where I’ll draw very poorly, plan out episodes, or just start writing thoughts on historical figures, their place in history, and how they might relate to my own life. They’re little essays, just a paragraph long. I get some of my best insights from those, and I end up pulling them out and putting them into scripts for episodes. David Senra I talked to Rick Rubin about this, because he said he’s worked with some of the most talented artists that have ever existed in music. He said something interesting one time: Eminem might be the most obsessive artist he’s ever worked with. I asked him to elaborate, and he said, “Well, he’s just constantly writing.” Eminem has hundreds of notebooks. Rick asked him one day, “How much of what you’re writing do you actually use?” He said, “Almost none of it.” Ben Wilson Again, it gives you that feeling of openness, which I think is really essential in any creative pursuit. Of course, there comes a time for refining and polishing, but if you try to start there, nothing good happens. I think everyone’s had that feeling, at least in high school, when you’re trying to write an essay and you get that blank page, and you have no idea where to start. For me, the introductions to my episodes are the hardest part. If I let myself get stuck there, then nothing good ever happens. I’ll just write the most garbage introduction: “Leonardo da Vinci was an artist.” Just terrible introductions, so I can get into the meat of the episode and get the juices flowing. Then I can return to the intro and work on it later. ### Building a Podcast From History David Senra Why did you start How to Take Over the World to begin with? Ben Wilson Because I wanted it to exist in the world. I was reading this biography of Napoleon, and I found myself extremely inspired. At the time, I was listening to the Tim Ferriss podcast. I love Tim, and he had done 3 or 4 interviews in a row that I just wasn’t interested in. I started thinking to myself, “Who do I wish Tim Ferriss would interview?” I realized I wished Tim Ferriss could interview Napoleon. Obviously, that was impossible, but I immediately had the realization: I could do that. I could be Tim Ferriss for dead people. That was the idea that popped into my mind. I immediately went and searched for who was already doing this. I really would’ve been content just to find a podcast and start listening to it. But I couldn’t find it, and so I thought, “Okay, there’s no way that I’m the only person who’s interested in this, so I’ll make it.” That’s where the idea came from. David Senra What year was this? Ben Wilson 2018. David Senra Was Napoleon your first episode? Ben Wilson Napoleon was my first episode. David Senra Which biography? Ben Wilson Andrew Roberts. David Senra Of course. Ben Wilson Yeah, great biography. Napoleon was the first one. I decided to call it How to Take Over the World, but I didn’t want people to get the idea that it was just conquerors. So, from there, it was Napoleon and then Steve Jobs, and the formula was set for the next 8 years of my life. David Senra What are some more of the ideas that you learned from studying these people and reading these books that you applied to your own life, whether it’s work or personal? Ben Wilson It’s a big question, right? I do think there’s so much, and as life goes on, certain lessons stand out to you more at certain times. I know you do a lot of the same biographies, right? Reading them with a fresh set of eyes— David Senra Oh, you mean— Ben Wilson —it’s just an entirely new experience. David Senra You mean rereading the books? Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra Yeah. Ben Wilson Rereading the books. David Senra Yeah. Ben Wilson It’s a new experience. Some of the things I’ve been thinking about recently: I think you do an exceptional job of this with Founders, which is that the most important realizations are negative realizations—things that you should not do or should not focus on. One great example is Steve Jobs at NeXT. He leaves Apple, founds NeXT, and they go to this retreat in Carmel with his founding team. They lay out their 5 top priorities for a NeXT machine: it has to be under $10,000, it has to come out by a certain date, it has to have certain computing capabilities, and it has to have certain other capabilities. Five things. He asks the founding team, “Of these, which is the highest priority? What is the most important?” They go around and discuss it. Everyone makes the case for the thing they’re working on. Their CMO advocates for something, their head of software advocates for something else, and their head of hardware advocates for something else. They get to the end, and he says, “Okay, the answer is all of the priorities. We have to have all of these things.” As a result, it comes out late, over budget— David Senra Yeah. Ben Wilson —it comes out over-engineered. The NeXT machine is a terrible machine. David Senra It was so bad, it almost put them out of business, and then he had to sell off his hardware division. People don’t know there was a time in Steve Jobs’ life when he was a software entrepreneur— Ben Wilson Yeah, yeah. David Senra —against his own wishes. Ben Wilson Yes, and even the software itself should’ve been really successful, and he almost submarines that as well. He manages to get an okay exit out of NeXT, but he tanks it. It’s terrible. David Senra Yeah, 13 years of struggle. We just read the book, I think it’s called Steve Jobs in Exile. Ben Wilson Steve Jobs in Exile. David Senra Which I’d highly recommend. Ben Wilson Really good book. David Senra Okay, and so then you fast-forward 10 years— Ben Wilson So, at this point in time, he’s a terrible executive. That’s objectively true, both in the way he’s leading and in the results he gets in the market. Fast-forward 10 years: he has returned to Apple, and his mindset has totally changed. Now he’s able to make trade-offs. He looks at the iPod and says, “Okay, this is a device that is under-engineered in a lot of ways.” There are already other MP3 players on the market that have more storage capacity, can read more file formats, and can do more. They’re just more robust MP3 players. He says, “I don’t think any of that matters. I think the only thing that matters is getting a great user experience that makes it easy for people to quickly get to their music.” They go to market with this iPod, this MP3 player that is deficient in all these ways, and then it’s one of the most successful products of all time because he’s able to make that trade-off, saying, “All these things don’t matter.” I think every great product, every great leader, every great decision comes from understanding that trade-off and realizing what does not matter. Like I said at the beginning, you do a great job with this because Founders doesn’t have intro music. There’s so much that it lacks that, especially 10 years ago, people would’ve told you was necessary to a successful podcast. You stripped all that away and said, “I actually don’t think any of that matters. The only thing that matters is connecting people to these stories, the founders, and the insights.” David Senra You and I had a conversation about this probably 3 years ago, because you script way more than I do. I have my notes and highlights, but I could literally record an episode of Founders today on the same book, do it again tomorrow, and it’s going to be a different episode. It’s whatever happens to be top of mind at that time as I’m reacting live to what’s going on. Ben Wilson And your whole thing was, “Yeah, but what about some kind of cohesive story?” I was like, “That’s not what I do.” David Senra That’s why I think our podcasts are different in a subtle way, and that’s fine, right? It’s going to be a different thing because you can think about how the iPod was sort of under-engineered from a hardware standpoint, but had really elegant software that connected people. For other people, it’s going to be the opposite trade-off. You can look at Elon Musk with the original Tesla, the Roadster. People said, “It needs great range. It needs to be affordable because people who go for electric cars are very cost-conscious. They do it because they don’t want to spend money on gas,” and that sort of thing. He had the opposite realization: “No, actually, we can go way upmarket. People don’t care about any of that stuff as long as it goes fast and it’s cool and beautiful.” Ben Wilson Yeah, I think he said “sexy.” David Senra “Sexy.” Ben Wilson That’s the way he wanted it to look. David Senra Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra You can think of multiple examples from history, but— Ben Wilson This idea of breaking trade-offs that you and I have talked about in the past is really interesting. Your example of the Wright brothers is another great way to describe the idea you’re talking about. Do you want to say that? David Senra That’s where I had the original realization: reading about the Wright brothers. At the time they were trying to solve flight, dozens of other people were trying to solve flight. It was popular at the time, like AI is today. A lot of different people were working on it, and everyone realized it was the future. So why did they succeed? Everyone was doing the obvious thing. What’s the obvious thing? You’re trying to get something in the air, so you focus on propulsion and lift. You’re focused on trying to make something fly, and Wilbur Wright realizes that’s actually an easy problem to solve. The hard problem to solve is control: once you’re in the air, can you stay in the air? He realizes this by looking at birds. He sees them making multiple micro-adjustments every second. They’re shifting their wings, moving up and down—they’re moving all the time. He realizes, “We don’t need to focus on lift or getting into the air at all. We need to focus on, once we’re in the air, how do we stay in the air?” So he goes to North Carolina, builds gliders, and for multiple years they work on control: once we’re in the air, how do we stay there? Ben Wilson A glider really is like a big kite— David Senra A big kite. Ben Wilson —that’s the way to think about it. Yeah, yeah. David Senra Yeah, exactly. They go to North Carolina because there’s wind coming off the ocean all the time. Someone on the ground holds a rope while he’s in this giant kite, figuring out, “All right, how do I steer? How do we change this thing so that we can stay in the air?” At the end, he basically slaps an engine on it, and it’s done. He was right: once you figure out how to stay in the air, the problem of lift was trivial. That realization—that lift isn’t an important problem to solve—allows them to focus on the more important thing. David Senra So why do you think breaking trade-offs is such a profound idea? Ben Wilson Especially today, there are all sorts of ideas about things that matter. For example, people will tell you yoga is important for your daily routine, lifting weights is important, journaling is important, and meditating is important. You’ll find people telling you all these things. If you took all that advice, your morning routine would go until 1:00 in the afternoon. You would never get anything accomplished, right? You have to be able to say, “Okay, one of these things is so important that it’s worth cutting out this and this and this and this in order to do it.” Until you’re able to make a trade-off, until you’re able to say, “This is more valuable than that,” things don’t really matter. There are so many priorities competing for your time and attention. You have to be able to make trade-offs if you’re going to be successful. David Senra How have you done that? Ben Wilson As Steve Jobs said, “Focus means saying no.” It’s about all the things I don’t do—all the opportunities people bring you as a podcaster that I’m sure you experience too, where you just say, “No, I’m not going to do that.” Early on, people came to me and said, “We want you to design our intro music.” At the beginning, I was trying to do a lot of that work because it was money, and early on I needed money so I could keep podcasting. But as time went on, I realized I needed to stop producing other people’s podcasts and— Ben Wilson You were producing— David Senra My First Million. Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra Eventually, I just told them— Ben Wilson That’s how I found you. David Senra Yeah. I was like, “I need to get out of here. I need to focus on my own.” I have to stop producing for other people. I have to stop launching these side businesses. I have to stop my agency, which I ended up shutting down, and just focus on this one thing so that it can be as successful as it can be. David Senra Hey, real quick, instead of having ads in today's episode, my partners Ramp, AppLovin, and Deel are donating to Ben Wilson's GoFundMe. If you are in the position to do so, please consider donating as well. The link to do so is in our show notes. I would greatly appreciate it. Okay, so we have a handful of ideas that you picked up from the 8 years you’ve been doing this project. Zero was one. The importance of breaking trade-offs is another. What else do you have? Ben Wilson What makes someone a great leader? In many ways, that’s the question. David Senra That you’re trying to answer over and over again— Ben Wilson That I’m trying to answer. David Senra —through telling the life stories of these people. Ben Wilson That’s right. David Senra Yeah. Ben Wilson In some ways, it’s different, right? I study conquerors and artists and entrepreneurs, but the thing I’ve been looking for is the through lines that connect all those people. There aren’t that many, because people are very different. There are different archetypes and different types of leaders. But there are a couple, and I think the most important one is that they have vision. One of my favorite quotes about vision comes from Genghis Khan, and I love it because it’s from Genghis Khan. It sounds like Silicon Valley guru advice from 2010, but his quote is, “Without the vision of a goal, a man cannot hope to manage his own life, let alone the life of others.” Ben Wilson Mm-hmm. David Senra When I saw that, I thought, “Wow, it really is true that the same thing that makes Genghis Khan a great leader is the same thing that makes Edwin Land or Steve Jobs a great leader.” They have vision. They have a goal. The second thing is that they’re able to express or communicate that goal. Across any domain, these people are excellent communicators. The medium changes. Some are great writers, some are great speakers, some are great at writing essays, and some are better at long-form. Some are great one-on-one, and some are great at mass communication. In any situation, in some way, they’re great communicators. They have a vision, and they’re able to communicate it to a lot of people. The third thing I’d say is they’re able to focus, so they’re able to shut out everything else. To me, those are the 3 great through lines of great leaders across industries and domains—conquerors, artists, and entrepreneurs. That’s what links them. David Senra As you’re studying these people, do you notice where you might be deficient in these traits? And are you able to change your behavior once you have access to that new information? Ben Wilson I hope so. I’m trying to communicate it to other people. I’m trying to be helpful as a Sherpa, connecting other people to great leaders, but I hope I’m able to internalize those things. I try to. I spend a lot of time thinking about the ways that I’m doing it as well. I’m sure you do too, right? You’re trying to implement what you’re learning into Founders Podcast. David Senra Yeah, the whole activity is just completely selfish. I didn’t have positive examples from childhood. I didn’t have a mentor or anything. Founders is going to be 10 years old this month, in about 10 days. Ben Wilson Wow. David Senra The whole idea came from this random interview with Elon Musk. I saw him in 2012, and he was asked, “You come to this country with no money…” David Senra You didn't know anybody. Did you have mentors? Who helped you? And he was like, “No, I didn't have mentors. I looked for mentors in a historical context.” He said, “I thought reading biographies and autobiographies were helpful.” At the time, I was a huge Tesla fan, and they only had the Model S. He mentioned Henry Ford and Nikola Tesla, and now I can't even remember the other people in there. I've probably seen this clip— Ben Wilson Edison, yeah. David Senra Yeah, yeah. Edison and Ben Franklin— Ben Wilson He and Edison are basically the same person, by the way. David Senra —and Ben Franklin, which is another one. I wanted you to say more about that in one second. I was like, “Oh, I should just read more biographies and autobiographies.” Then you start doing that, and you're like, “Oh, this is super valuable,” because this person lives an entire life. Essentially, the way I think about it is somebody had a 40-year career, and somebody spent multiple years writing about that, documenting all the lessons that person learned. I can read it in 40 hours, and then turn it into a podcast that you can listen to in 45 minutes. That compression is insanely valuable for people whose time is excessively valuable and scarce. Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra Why do you think Edison and Elon are similar? Ben Wilson Their lives are just linked in really remarkable ways. Musk himself has pointed this out. He said, “The car company is called Tesla, but in many ways I'm more similar to Thomas Edison than I am to Nikola Tesla,” because he is a great inventor, but more than that, he's also a great industrialist. He's great at bringing products to market and making them successful. Their personalities are extremely similar. Their backgrounds are extremely similar. Their physiognomy—they look very similar. They both have these massive heads that people would comment on. There's even this one: their fathers are very similar. They're both entrepreneurial but kind of crazy, and they don't have a great relationship with them. David Senra Yeah. There are some wild stories in Edison's biographies, because he was the most famous person when he was alive. He was the most famous person in America. Ben Wilson Right. David Senra Walt Disney said Edison was his hero. Jeff Bezos said Edison was his hero. You hear this over and over again. I remember reading this book on Edison, I think it was published in 1957. When he was five or six years old, he misbehaved, and they lived in this little town or village. They literally put up a note saying, “Come to the town square Saturday morning and watch me beat the shit out of my kid.” That literally happened to him. Then you hear Elon tell these crazy stories. I think Eric Jorgenson was on this podcast earlier about his book on Elon, and Elon relates a story where his dad gets in his face when Elon is about 10, screaming for hours about how stupid and useless he is and how he'll never be successful. Ben Wilson Both of them were considered actually kind of dumb as kids. In Elon's case, it's probably because he's a little autistic and has trouble communicating with people and emoting with them. In Edison's case, it was because he was mostly deaf, and so had trouble communicating with people for that reason. They weren't shepherded toward greatness as children. They kind of had to fight for it because people didn't think they were bright initially. There's even one weird biographical element: Elon is from South Africa, but his mother's family are transplants. He has deep roots in America and Canada. Elon's family was in Canada, and he had a great-grandfather who was a politically minded preacher who got in trouble with the government, so he fled over the border from Canada to the U.S. and ended up living in Minnesota or Iowa. Edison had a grandfather on his maternal side who was the exact same kind of person. He was in the U.S., kind of a preacher, and got in trouble with the government. People ran him out of town, and they had to move to Canada across the border. There are weird biographical things between the two of them that make you wonder if it's the same person reborn, reincarnated. It makes you believe in reincarnation. David Senra You collect these things even more than I do. You pick up on these weird things. Like you just said, a lot of these people have giant heads. People talk about how big their head is. Ben Wilson Oprah's one of those, by the way. David Senra Who? Ben Wilson Oprah. David Senra Yeah. Ben Wilson When she was an actress, they couldn't find hats for her that were big enough to fit over her head. David Senra I was tormented when I was a kid because my head was basically this size, but I kind of grew into it as I got older. My brother's friends were over when I was in elementary school, and one of them was like, “Shut up, basketball head.” I was like, “Oh no, he said the nickname.” Then they brought it back to school, and they called me Lollipop because I was super skinny and had this giant round head. Ben Wilson Yeah, yeah. David Senra You mentioned the big-headed thing. You mentioned that they had weird diets. Didn't Edison just drink milk or something? Ben Wilson Milk. He was very into milk for a while. Yeah, he would only drink milk. David Senra So they had weird diets, and then insane levels of energy, though— Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra —is another thing that— Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra —you would pick up on. Again, it's just mentioned. Sometimes it's not even a main part of a book. You're just like, “Oh, that's weird.” It's mentioned a few times that this guy has unusual levels of energy. Napoleon, same thing: unusual levels of energy. Ben Wilson I felt like I was going crazy, like a person with a corkboard who's connecting all the strings. The first five biographies I did, Napoleon has a quote: “If you want to dine well, dine with Campos Sarras. If you want to dine poorly, dine with Lebrun. If you want to dine quickly, dine with me,” because he would eat dinner in 15 minutes and get back to work. David Senra But his dinner was a whole chicken. Ben Wilson Well, no, because he ate— As he got older, he got kind of portly, but when he was young, he was known for being a peckish eater. Not only would he eat quickly, but he would eat light. He would not eat very much at all, and it was commented on how little he ate. Then you read about Steve Jobs, and he has all these weird diets. He eats almost nothing. He'll go on diets where he only eats apples for months at a time, and he eats very little. Then you read about Vladimir Putin, and this is someone who would eat a boiled egg a day as his entire diet. Then you read about Joan of Arc, and she fasts all the time and barely eats anything. Before I realized it, I've got about 20 stories of all these people who are all extremely light eaters, and it's like, “Wow, something weird is going on here.” The realization I've come to is it's obviously not about the food. But what it is, I think food is a good test for whether you're obsessed with something. Do you find yourself skipping meals? Do you find yourself forgetting to eat? That's a really good litmus test for whether you are truly obsessed with something or not, and all these people are obsessives. So, yes, they eat very peckishly— David Senra I— Ben Wilson —because they're so obsessed with something else. David Senra I think when you had these three ideas that you were connecting, the fourth one—you said focus and maybe obsession could be interchangeable. But I think the fourth leg of that would have to be obsession. Ben Wilson Obsession. Right. David Senra They just don't write books about normal, well-adjusted people. They're all obsessive. If you look back even on that counter, there's probably 25 books. I see John D. Rockefeller looking at me right now. Every single person they wrote a book about is just obsessive about weird shit. Ben Wilson For me, I would love to know what book you think best communicates that obsession. For me, there are a few books I reread, but there's one I reread every year, and it is Arnold: The Education of a Bodybuilder. David Senra It's literally right back there. It's on the right shelf, one, two, three, five books up. I can see it from here. Ben Wilson Yeah. A lot of these biographies or autobiographies are written retrospectively, and Arnold: The Education of a Bodybuilder is written right in the middle of it. You can just feel the obsession. This is someone who was obsessed in the past and has now gotten to a better place. This is someone who is obsessed right now, who can't stop thinking about bodybuilding and his craft. And so, even though I'm not— David Senra No, you— Ben Wilson You were jacked. Yeah, I was more jacked. Yeah. Ben Wilson But anyway, that level of obsession comes through. I don't think I've found anyone who's better able to communicate what it feels like to be in that moment than Education of a Bodybuilder. David Senra But I think he also does in that book, because it's the first— Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra The first 120 pages, you only have to read the first 120 pages, because the second half of the book is literally his workouts. Ben Wilson Yeah, yeah. I don't read that. David Senra I think he's 30 when the book is published, and I figure it's an autobiography of the first 30 years of his life. But how you were just connecting all of these traits that appear across whether they're a conqueror or an artist, living in different parts of history and different parts of the country or the world—there's a through line there. He identified the same way that I got to the top of this weird, obscure profession, because at the time, being a bodybuilder was like being a freak. Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra You were a weirdo. There was almost no money in it. It was like, “What are you doing?” I think when he started in Austria, he said there were 5 bodybuilders in the entire country. Ben Wilson Right. David Senra His parents literally thought something was wrong with him. Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra And he's like, “Well, actually, if you break down where I started and where I'm at, and then look at all the things I used to get there,” he's like, “I'm going to use the same exact playbook that got me to the top of bodybuilding to build a business empire,” he talks about, “and to get to the top of movies.” He didn't mention politics, I don't think. But he's like, “No, I'm just going to take that same playbook,” and he's calling his shot before he does it. Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra He's only 30, and he's like, “I'm just going to run the same playbook and these same traits. If I apply this discipline and obsession to whatever I aim it at, I will be successful.” It's incredible. Ben Wilson Yeah. Well, on the point about politics, as a foreign-born person, he cannot be president of the United States. Governor of California is basically the highest office someone from his background can achieve, and he achieved it, right? So, across 4 domains, he does it. And he says that he is obsessed with the stories of Alexander the Great and Napoleon and people like that. David Senra Charlemagne. Ben Wilson And Charlemagne. Yeah, he loves that stuff. It's interesting because, as you talked about, it was kind of looked down on. His parents were concerned. It was viewed as shady and weird. But having said that, he talks about how once he is locked into a vision, a goal for himself, everyone starts helping him, right? People at lunch at his middle school—or I guess at this point he's in high school—are like, “Hey, Arnold, you need to get bigger. Have my milk.” David Senra Mm-hmm. Ben Wilson You know? “Oh, you need to rest up for your competition. Let me carry that for you.” People are doing stuff. There's this good quote by Goethe, the author. He says, “At the moment of commitment, the entire universe conspires to assist you.” David Senra I love that. Ben Wilson It's such a good quote. And you see that in the life of Arnold. When he commits, and he has that vision and articulates it to everyone, he's like, “Hey, I know you guys think this is freakish, but I am going to achieve this,” everyone is like, “Okay, what can I do to help?” All these strangers are helping him. David Senra I'm so glad you said that. I think that's such an important point. My friend Daniel Ek, the founder of Spotify, said this about me: “You're very easy to understand, so therefore you're very easy to help.” Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra He's like, “All you care about is podcasting. That's it.” So if somebody wants to help you, and you have this passion that you try to preach to other people, you're very legible. It's not like, “Oh, how can I help this guy?” It's like, well, he's just obsessed with podcasts, so there are a million different ways that you could help him in that domain. And I feel the great founders do this too. They're able to explain in just a handful of words what's important to them. The example I always use is, if you went to the studio back there in the other house and saw the desk where I record Founders, there's just 1 sticky note right in front of me. I don't even think you could see it on camera, and it says 3 words: “Insanely great products.” Steve Jobs was able to describe what was important to him from when he was 19 to when he was 55: “Insanely great products. Do you want to make insanely great products? Then come with me. If you're not interested in this, remove yourself from my life.” He's very easy to understand. Ben Wilson Yeah. I love that idea. That's a great framework: make yourself easy to help. David Senra Yeah. Ben Wilson Because that's connected, of course, to having a very clear vision. And once you do have a clear vision, and once you make yourself easy to help, it really does feel like people are conspiring to assist you. Stuff just starts popping out of the woodwork to get you where you want to go. ### Faith Conquest and Influence David Senra Tell me, you've studied way more religious figures than I have. You've done more episodes on them. Tell me what you've learned from reading about these kinds of people. Ben Wilson Yeah, I've done a few religious figures: Jesus, Brigham Young, Joan of Arc. Even though I'm a Latter-day Saint, Brigham Young and Jesus are the most connected to my faith tradition. Joan of Arc, even though she was Catholic, is maybe the one that's captured my attention the most. How much do you know about Joan of Arc? David Senra Almost nothing. Ben Wilson Really interesting— David Senra I listened to the episode, but it was a year ago, three years ago. Ben Wilson Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a long time ago. David Senra So, yeah. Ben Wilson I mean, really interesting, a really interesting person. She's a great example of what we're talking about, right? She comes onto the scene when she's about 15 years old. She's a girl. It's the Middle Ages. People are literally swinging swords and throwing spears, right? She has no place on a battlefield. She's so young, and besides being young, she fasts a lot. She's malnourished. She's this thin, right? She's little. And the French have been trying to kick the English out of France for years and years and years, making no progress. She shows up, and immediately, once the French start following her, they have success. And it's impossible to explain. It is actually one of those things that makes you start to believe in the divine, because you're like, “Whoa, what is going on here?” But if you want to explain it in a material sense, there's only 1 thing that's different about her and everyone else. Before her, the King of France, the dukes assisting him, and all these field marshals have competing priorities and all this stuff they're trying to do. Then here comes along this young girl who says, “I have 1 priority. That 1 priority is winning this war against the English. God is on our side. Follow me. We will be victorious.” So she has that clarity of vision. Then everyone lines up behind her, and they immediately start having success because of that clarity. It's a remarkable example: she lacks literally everything else except for focus and clarity of vision, and having only that is enough to be victorious. David Senra I don't know why, but there's this great essay by Paul Graham that comes to mind when I hear you speak about this. He asks, “What's more predictive of success, intelligence or determination?” And he has this thought experiment in there. He's like, “Well, let's say you started out with 1 person that's 100 out of 100 with intelligence and 100 out of 100 with determination.” It doesn't take long if you keep the intelligence and take away determination: you have this brilliant yet ineffectual person. He's writing to entrepreneurs, and he goes, “If you do the reverse, where you keep determination at 100 out of 100, but you take away intelligence,” he's like, “You have someone that winds up rich, but they have trash-hauling businesses or something.” Ben Wilson Right, right, right. David Senra They just won't stop— Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra —so they eventually stumble into something, a way to serve other people, and they just keep doing it because their determination is at 100, at max level. Ben Wilson Well, you look at these people. I don't think Elon Musk is the smartest person at any of his companies. He's very, very smart. Don't get me wrong. He's extremely smart. But you could probably find an engineer with a higher IQ at Tesla, and definitely at SpaceX, than Elon. The same thing with Steve Jobs. He was not the smartest person at his company. But they are the most determined. You just don't find people like that. They are insane in how determined they are. Elon has a great quote. Someone asks him, “How do you stay an optimist about...” Because he's trying to accomplish these big things. He's trying to go to Mars. He's trying to save the world in terms of saving our climate with electric cars, and save the world from AI with Grok. Ben Wilson And so they say, “How do you keep your optimism?” He says, “Optimism, pessimism, screw that. I’m going to get it done.” That’s it. That’s the level of determination. He doesn’t think about optimism, whether he can do it or can’t do it. It’s just, “I have to do it. It has to be done.” That feeling, that level of determination, is what separates these people from everyone else. David Senra I thought your Brigham Young episodes—you did two or three?—were excellent. Ben Wilson Yeah, I did multiple parts. David Senra If that was your main takeaway from Joan of Arc, what would your main takeaway from Brigham be? Aren’t you related to him? Ben Wilson Yeah, he is my great-great-grandfather. From Brigham, I think my main takeaway was, first, finding something you believe in. He was a true believer. Number two, unceasing action. He wasn’t that smart. A lot of the people who followed him were a lot smarter than him, but he was unbelievably determined and relentless. He just would not stop. There’s a good quote about another Latter-day Saint, Brandon Flowers, the lead singer of The Killers. The Killers were part of a group of bands that got big in the early 2000s. There was The Killers, Franz Ferdinand, The Strokes, and others; they all had albums that hit it big around the same time. Brandon Flowers is Mormon; he doesn’t drink, do drugs, or smoke, and he doesn’t really party. I think they were interviewing the lead singer of The Strokes, and he said, “We all had these hit albums at the same time. We have a hit album, and we’re touring, partying, and having a good time. I’m in the middle of this, and all of a sudden I read that The Killers have put out another album. I’m like, ‘Will you please calm down? We’re trying to enjoy the fruits of our labor here.’” David Senra Yeah. Ben Wilson That feeling of relentlessness is what you get when competitors talk about these people who succeed. It’s always, “Will you please slow down? Will you please act like a normal person?” The level of determination and relentless action they take is not normal. David Senra And you saw that in Brigham? Ben Wilson I saw that in Brigham Young. He had more of that relentlessness than almost anyone I’ve ever read about. David Senra What about Jesus? Ben Wilson Jesus, of course, is, depending on your belief, part God, and it’s difficult to square him with everyone else. One of the things you see in early Christianity is something similar to Nike. I remember reading about Nike, reading the biography of Phil Knight. You’re kind of waiting for this moment of, “All right, when does stuff really change?” Then you realize nothing changes. The company grows 50 percent every year for about 20 years, and it’s just this idea of compounding. It’s the same thing with Jesus. You’re waiting for the big break of Christianity, and it never really happens. Christianity grows about 50 percent per year, every year, for centuries until it becomes the dominant ideology in the entire world. Jesus’s ability to persuade is the number one thing I took away from him. There was something about him, and we can get into some of it. The Paul Johnson biography does a really good job of— David Senra That’s the one I read, because it’s a biography of Jesus written by a believer. My mom was a fundamental Christian, you know. Unfortunately, she took it to a very extreme level. She got diagnosed with cancer and tried to pray her cancer away. It took me two years to convince her to go to an oncologist. At that point, I was living in Miami and she was in Orlando. I had to drive up there to go to every appointment with her, because if I didn’t go, she would just skip the appointments. I have a hard time reconciling this even to this day, because I went to church every single Sunday against my will, and in many cases on Wednesday night. My point was that I wanted to make an episode—not… I wanted to make an episode so that if you believe Jesus is Christ and God, you would get something out of it, and if you don’t believe that— Ben Wilson Right. David Senra —what are the facts that we don’t… Nothing supernatural, just what do we actually know about the person who we know existed? Ben Wilson Right. David Senra I think Paul Johnson’s biography is the best book to read if you want that story. Ben Wilson Well, Paul Johnson talks about how often the eyes of Jesus are described. All the time in the New Testament, it’s talking about, “And Jesus looked,” and, “Jesus beheld.” It’s always talking about where he’s looking and his eyes. This is another one that’s kind of like the light-eater thing, where you’re like, “Whoa, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.” So many of these people are light eaters. People talk about their eyes. David Senra They have these intense stares. Ben Wilson They have these intense eyes and these intense stares, whether it’s Steve Jobs, Alexander Hamilton, or Jesus. All these people have remarkable stares. David Senra Out of the conquerors, the dictators, the religious figures, the artists, and the entrepreneurs, if you could only study one category of these people, what do you find most fascinating? Ben Wilson Probably the conquerors. I think life is made of hierarchies. We’re all competing in these different hierarchies, whether social, career, economic, athletic, or artistic. People compete; that’s what people do, and it forms these hierarchies. But the highest hierarchy, the one at the top of everything else, is the hierarchy of violence: the people who can most effectively channel violence. That’s conquerors. They’re the ones who sit atop the artists. They commission all the great art. The great merchants, entrepreneurs, and founders ultimately have to be responsive to politics at the end of the day. I think those are the most interesting stories, because conquest is the pinnacle of human achievement. David Senra Are there any other books that you reread every year? You said you reread The Education of a Bodybuilder by Arnold Schwarzenegger. Ben Wilson One I read for fun every year is Ender’s Game. Have you read Ender’s Game? David Senra I don’t think so. Ben Wilson That’s fiction you would love. David Senra Yeah. I’ve listened to the audiobook. Ben Wilson Okay. David Senra I was really interested in Sean Parker for a while. This was probably 10 years ago. He popped up on Twitter one time and had this epic run, then kind of disappeared, and I was like, “What is going on here?” I remember hearing him in an interview talk about Ender’s Game, and I think I listened to the audiobook about a decade ago. Ben Wilson Yeah, yeah. And then Mind of Napoleon—since I discovered it, I’ve reread that every year. David Senra I just did another episode on it. Ben Wilson Yeah, yeah, yeah. David Senra I saw it. Ben Wilson Again, same thing: 300 pages of just Napoleon, in his own words, published in, again, 1956, 1957. It’s one of the best books you could ever read. David Senra One of the things I think you highlighted well, and that I’ve been thinking about recently, is that Napoleon was an unbelievably religious person. That’s obviously not true in a traditional sense. He was not very Catholic. He was not a believing Christian by any stretch of the imagination, but the way he talks about destiny—destiny was clearly his God. Ben Wilson He says, “Destiny must be fulfilled. That is my chief doctrine.” David Senra Yes. He treated destiny like God. He had this unbelievable faith in it. I actually think Steve Jobs was an incredibly religious person too. He was a believer, even though it wasn’t traditional. It was kind of this California— Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra —atheistic, agnostic Buddhism, right? But he really, really believed in it, and I think that sincerity of belief is part of what allowed them to be successful. I think people who are double-minded are always unstable and unable to make— Ben Wilson What do you mean by double-minded? David Senra People who espouse things they don’t really believe in, who maybe believe only lukewarmly in what they’re actually trying to pursue. You’re a great example of a real believer. You believe in Founders, in the mission of founders and what it’s trying to accomplish. You can tell there are certain podcasters you listen to who mostly believe, but don’t totally believe in what they’re doing. Ben Wilson We had a podcaster dinner last night, and you should see the text. My partner and co-founder, Rob Moore, is sitting behind me. The text I sent him at about 6:00 this morning about this was, “Oh, boy.” David Senra Well, for example, Napoleon was a true believer. Ben Wilson He was able to cast aside Christianity because he didn’t really believe in it, and have this other religion that he very sincerely believed in. There was another—I can’t remember which king of France it was—but he was a Protestant. He’d grown up a Protestant, and they wouldn’t accept him as king as a Protestant, so he had to convert to Catholicism. So he said, “Paris is worth a mass,” and he converted to Catholicism. That king, of course, was not a great conqueror. You’re never going to accomplish great things in life if you don’t have a genuine, sincere belief at the heart of what you do. David Senra I love the summary of that idea as “double-minded.” That’s really great. Ben Wilson That’s a phrase from the Bible. I didn’t come up with that. I think it’s in the Old Testament: “A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.” David Senra Yeah, the way I think about this is, we talked about a couple of traits, and now we’ve added obsession as the fourth one. Maybe a fifth one would be the ability to evangelize. Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra It doesn’t matter what it happens to be. I’m thinking of Rockefeller, because I see his face right now, and I’m like, “What does he evangelize?” He wanted to impose order on what he saw as chaos. And the fact is, he controlled not just a commodity, but an entire industry that was brand new, which he got into essentially from day one. Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra He was able to evangelize highly successful founders in that same industry to sell their businesses and come with him on this mission of imposing order on the chaos. Ben Wilson Rockefeller has these 2 influences in his life. His father has a mania for money; his father is obsessed with money, and he is— David Senra And having multiple families. Ben Wilson —and having multiple families, right? But he— David Senra He’s a bigamist. Ben Wilson He’s a bigamist. He’s a huckster. He’s always selling these fake cures or whatever. He has a mania for money, and his mother is incredibly religious, right? She’s old Puritan stock, a real Christian woman. He discovers this biography of Amos Lawrence, who gives away crisp dollar bills, is what he says, and gives away $100,000 in his lifetime. Rockefeller is about 10 years old, and he tells his childhood friend, “I’m going to be worth $100,000 someday. I’m going to do it, too.” Amos Lawrence was a guy who gave away $100,000, and Rockefeller found in that the ability to bring together his 2 passions, which were money and Christianity. He was able to justify those 2 things and have this very sincere belief. I think my favorite quote about belief comes from Phil Knight. In Shoe Dog, he talks about trying to sell encyclopedias and then trying to sell— David Senra Mutual funds. Ben Wilson Yep, mutual funds. David Senra Yeah. Ben Wilson He’s not that great of a salesman. Then he starts trying to sell Tiger shoes, and he’s an exceptional salesman. He’d sell like crazy. David Senra Can’t keep them in stock. Ben Wilson Yes. He says, “What is the difference between the first 2 things and the third?” And he says, “Belief, I decided. Belief is irresistible.” I love that quote. “Belief is irresistible,” and it’s so true. When you find someone who really believes, it’s irresistible. David Senra Yeah, passion is infectious. Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra There’s a guy I always talk about named Steve Rinella. He’s a podcaster and a writer. He makes a show on Netflix and does a bunch of things. I think he might primarily describe himself as a writer, and his writing is incredible. But he has a passion for the out- the life of outdoors: hunting, fishing, camping. These are things I don’t even do. The guy is so intelligent, mission-driven, and passionate. I said one time, “This guy could make a podcast reading the phone book, and I would just listen to him.” I’m not even interested in the same subject he is, but his passion has infected me. He’s also taught me a ton about the natural world and history, and about all these other people who played a role in the frontier and all the crazy stuff—much of it American history. I got completely wrapped up in this guy’s passion— Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra —and he made me part of his mission, even if I didn’t care. Ben Wilson That’s what’s irresistible about it, right? David Senra Yeah. Ben Wilson It’s not even something you care about, and yet, for that moment, you get sucked into this vortex of passion. David Senra Yeah, and then he pulls out ideas or principles, very similar to the work that you and I do. He might have learned them on a very grueling 11-day hunt in Alaska, but they’re applicable whether you’re building a company, conquering a nation, or creating a sculpture. Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra These principles can adapt across different domains and professions. Is there anything you feel, since our work overlaps a lot, that you’ve discovered that I’m missing? Ben Wilson You really believe in the insights, and I really believe in the power of the story. I don’t think either of those approaches is wrong, so I don’t think there’s anything missing. I don’t think there’s anything I’ve found that you haven’t found, at least nothing that comes to mind. Honestly, a lot of the lessons are the lessons, and you learn them pretty quickly. That’s why I like to focus on the stories. Sometimes, when a lesson is framed in a slightly different way, with a slightly different problem or in a slightly different setting, all of a sudden it clicks for you. I learn the same things from Brigham Young that I learn from Edwin Land or Joan of Arc, but that slightly different setting, personality, or framing of the challenge can make it click differently for you at a different time. That’s why I get very intrigued by the stories, and that’s why I think we have different approaches. David Senra That’s a perfect time to transition into the second thing I want to talk to you about. I think I’ve said a few times in this episode that you’re one of my favorite podcasters. My life has greatly benefited from your work, and I think you’re world-class at what you do. I think I told you this even before you thought there was a business here. I remember these conversations we were having about, “Hey, ditch the agency. Stop producing,” and doing all this other stuff. I remember that one night when we were in Austin. It was me, you, and Cliff Weitzman. Do you remember this conversation? Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra You, Cliff, and I talked about your business and your podcast for probably 90 minutes, because Cliff and I were both super fans of your work. We were like, “Man, if you just focus, you have the thing. You’ve already done the difficult thing.” I was about to record with Mickey Melka. I was in the Bay Area, and I try to sell ads for you all the time. I don’t get any money from it. I just do it because I love you and want you to succeed. I remember saying, “Hey, Ben, I’ve only got 60 seconds. I’m about to record, but I think I have a good partner for you. Do you have any ad inventory?” And you said, “Something’s going on with the podcast that I need to tell you about.” I said, “All right, just tell me now.” And you said, “I don’t want to ruin your recording.” I said, “Ben, what the fuck is going on?” And you said, “I have cancer.” I said, “Oh, shit. I’m going to call you back. I’ll call you back when I’m done.” Then we obviously talked about it, and you did one of the most profound episodes I’ve ever heard on the How to Take Over the World feed. It’s called “The Cancer Episode.” You lay out what you’re going through and your perspective on it. I don’t know what to say. It’s remarkable. Can you tell us what’s going on in your life right now, and what’s going on in your mind as you go through this experience? Ben Wilson Yeah. I was feeling terrible. I was feeling really bad, and I went in and saw a doctor. It was just this primary care doctor. I didn’t even have a doctor because I don’t like to go see the doctor, so I met this woman for the first time. I said, “You know, I’ve got all this stuff going on. I’m losing weight. I can’t really explain it.” She starts poking around in my body, and she pokes me and says, “What’s that?” I said, “I don’t know.” David Senra Where did she poke you? Ben Wilson Right here, right in my liver. She said, “You need to go get scanned right away.” So I got scanned, and I had a lot of cancer—a lot of cancer. Some of these oncologists were like, “How did you just keep functioning normally? How did you not come see a doctor earlier?” David Senra What was your answer to that question? Ben Wilson Everything in my life, you get aches and pains, and they all go away. Ben Wilson I had always gotten better. My back hurts; okay, rest a little bit, and it’ll get better. Stuff had started hurting, but I was getting older, and I thought it would get better. It was really only after months that I thought, “This is really not normal.” That’s why I hadn’t gone in earlier. I think that’s true of a lot of men, by the way. Go get checked out if something feels off. David Senra Didn’t you say that you were initially reluctant to go to the doctor, and then you were putting your symptoms into Claude? Ben Wilson Yes. I still was putting it off, even as things were getting worse. I put my symptoms into Claude, and Claude said, “This isn’t the kind of thing where you go in next week when you have a chance. This is the kind of thing where you go in right now. If you can’t be seen right now, go to an emergency room.” Claude was right. If I’d been untreated, if I lived in a world where there were no cancer treatments, I probably would have been dead within a few months. It was really bad. I lost 40 pounds, so things were very bad. The initial prognosis was one year. If you look up the survival statistics for the type of cancer I had and the amount of spread I had, the five-year survival rate is 0%. This is all stuff I’m reading, and it’s very sobering. Having said that, the number of new treatments coming out for all sorts of different types of cancers is remarkable. We live in a really remarkable age, and I hope not to die in the next five years. I have to prepare my family for the possibility that I might not be here, but at the same time, I’ve also got to live like I’ve got my entire life in front of me, because that might also be the case. That’s where I’ve been: trying to live two lives at once. One in which I die sometime in the next year, and one in which I’ve got 20 years. David Senra What kind of cancer do you have? Ben Wilson It’s called primary neuroendocrine carcinoma, stage 4, metastatic. Neuroendocrine means the cells that form your endocrine system, so that’s your hormones, as well as your neurological system, like your nerves. It’s those types of cells. It’s related to small-cell lung cancer, like smokers’ cancer. Mine started in the lungs as a very nonaggressive cancer, and then at some point it spread to my liver. At that point, it became metastatic. It transformed and mutated and became very aggressive. David Senra Where has it spread to? Ben Wilson The liver is the main thing, and then the lungs, the spine, and my brain. The brain is maybe the biggest issue we’re trying to work with right now. David Senra On the episode, you were talking about some kind of therapies and drugs that you’re trying. What have you done so far? Ben Wilson So far, I’ve just done chemo, and I finished chemotherapy for now. It’s excellent. It feels great to be done. Now I’m starting on a drug called tarlatamab, which we call our second line. The chemo did a good job of pushing back some of my cancer. I feel way better than I did at the beginning of this, and now we’re just going to see if we can keep that going. If tarlatamab works for me, then I’ve got great prospects. If it doesn’t, we’ve got to try to figure out something else in a hurry. David Senra I don’t want to poke and prod you and make you uncomfortable, but you have 4 small kids. If there’s anything that anybody in the audience can do to help you, I want to give them as much detail and surface area as possible to hopefully find some lucky thing for us—for you and your wife and your kids. Can you describe the drug that you’re on? We were on the phone 2 days ago about this. What are some of the prospects? What’s the good news? Essentially, we just need to buy you more time. Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra Because there’s just way more, whether it’s AI, immunotherapy, or new drugs. We just need to buy more years. Explain what’s going on with this new drug. Ben Wilson Tarlatamab is technically not an immunotherapy, but it’s very similar to an immunotherapy. The encouraging news is that tarlatamab was initially approved for people with small-cell lung cancer, and there it helped extend life expectancy by about 6 months to a year, which is still good time that you would take. There’s a certain subset of people who have my type of cancer who’ve been on the drug for 2 years, and it’s working. It’s only been 2 years, so maybe it’s going to stop working any moment now, but maybe not. That’s the hope we have right now. The assumption I’m trying to make is that this drug, tarlatamab, will last for a certain amount of time, and then we’ve got to find something else. Every cancer is unique. It’s its own special snowflake, and it’s got these different receptors, different markers. One that I have is called SMARCA or SMARCA4, and there aren’t a lot of great therapies for that yet, but there are a lot of clinical trials. That’s maybe the next thing we’re looking at: if tarlatamab stops working for me, we can go into some of these trials. That’s the next thing we can attack with this cancer. I’m just about to start this new drug, and hopefully it can keep things at bay. David Senra Is that covered under insurance? How does this work? Is it in short supply? Ben Wilson At first, it wasn’t covered under my insurance, but they just had a new study that they got a positive indication for this month. So now it’s going to be covered, which is great news. The next thing we’re looking at is whether we can enhance this with a custom mRNA vaccine to make it more effective. That’s sort of the cutting edge of cancer treatment, and that’s what we’re looking at spending money on right now. ### Living With Two Futures David Senra Do you want to talk about some of the same stuff you shared in terms of your outlook? You’re a man of faith. Ben Wilson Yeah. David Senra I don’t have the same faith that you have. I have no idea what happens after somebody dies. But again, I think the episode you made is one of the most profound podcast episodes ever created. I can’t imagine what you’re going through, because your kids are all 5 and under, right? You said in that episode—I think it was a quote, maybe by Nietzsche—“If I could live my life over again the same exact way, I would pick the same life.” You’re a good man. I’ve been telling everybody this: you’re a much better person than I am, for sure. You found something you love to do. You have this beautiful family, your faith, all these friends. You have everything you wanted in life, and that future might be deprived from you. Yet the message you’re putting out there isn’t, “Oh, pity me,” or “Woe is me,” or that you’re sad. It’s almost unbelievably positive, for lack of a better description. Ben Wilson I really believe that, especially when you study history. I think about Napoleon fighting in France in the War of the Third or Fourth Coalition, or whatever. His men, his armies, keep getting wiped out, so by the end they’re just new conscripts. As soon as they can get them, they put them on a horse and send them out to the battlefield. They’ve got what they call children running around on chickens, because they’re baby kids. They’re 16- and 15-year-olds riding around on these new horses that aren’t even trained for combat. You have all these 16- and 15-year-olds dying in war. You read about the amount of disease. If I go next year, you can’t study history for long without realizing I’ve had an amazing life. I really have. I would choose this life again. It’s been great. I have a wife who I love and 4 kids who I really love. I found my vocation, my calling in life. I wake up every day excited about what I get to do. That wasn’t the beginning of my career. I’ve worked in consulting—it’s not exactly the coal mines, but I didn’t love it. I’ve got to spend years doing the thing that I love. So life ends a little bit early, maybe. If it does, that doesn’t mean I’ve had a very unfortunate life. I still feel like I’ve had a very fortunate life. Context matters. When I’m going through pain, it’s not always easy, and I have bad moments. People can get the wrong impression from reading or watching that podcast. For other people going through cancer or disease, you have moments. But that’s okay. I just try to remember that, for the most part, I’ve had a very charmed life, and I really believe that to be the case. David Senra Listen, man, I admire you. I’m glad we’re friends. I really love your work, and I’m really glad you chose to do this with me. I know we were thinking about timing, and I didn’t want you to be reluctant about it, because I do think there are a bunch of positive externalities and unpredictable externalities that are going to come out of this conversation. I would just say, in closing, if anybody’s hearing this and could do anything—whether you have resources, drugs, anything that could help Ben and his family—please get in touch. We’ll leave contact information in the show notes. We’ll leave Ben’s email address in the show notes as well, if you’re cool with that. You’re a good dude. You got a bad hand, and I want to do anything I can to help you. Thanks for taking the time. Ben Wilson Thank you. If I can end with one more thing, I am alive, at least in some part, due to the influence of a man named Jon Huntsman, who was a billionaire from Utah and decided that the thing he wanted to do with his money was found a world-class cancer institute in Utah. I tried going through the medical system outside of that, and then I got put in this world-class cancer institute. I’ve had remarkable care since then. People know me and feel like they know me because of the podcast, and people have been remarkably generous. But when you’re in this situation, you can’t help but think of all the people who are probably just as good of people as I am, who don’t have the type of resources, don’t have the type of audience that I have. I guess I would also like to put in a plug for everyone else. I do have a lot of resources, so if you know someone else in your life who could maybe use it more than me, also be thinking about them. Think about donating to Huntsman Cancer Institute or other cancer research and stuff like that, so other people can be helped out as well. I would really appreciate it. David Senra This is not an act. This is how he’s been since I’ve known him. Thanks, Ben. Ben Wilson All right. Thanks, David. David Senra I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please remember to subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a review, and make sure you listen to my other podcast, Founders. For almost a decade, I've obsessively read over four hundred biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs, searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear on this show first found me through Founders.