{"slug":"jason-fried-your-only-competition-is-your-costs","show_id":"davidsenra","title":"Jason Fried: Your Only Competition Is Your Costs","display_title":null,"title_orig":"Jason Fried × David Senra","dek":"Fried’s thesis is that costs, not competitors, determine whether a business stays alive, while low overhead reduces the customers a niche product needs. 37signals applies it with roughly 62 employees, no outside funding, a roughly $10 million AWS saving, and Basecamp’s $299 monthly price cap. This preserves optionality and limits concentration, while AI’s possibility of killing soft SaaS in three years remains a risk to monitor.","lang":"EN","date":"2026-02-15","published_at":"2026-02-15T13:00:29+00:00","duration_min":141,"source_url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdDCtMA1gSw","source_label":"YouTube","rss_url":null,"youtube_id":"BdDCtMA1gSw","youtube_url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdDCtMA1gSw","thumbnail_url":null,"chips":["person:Jason Fried","person:David Senra"],"provenance":[["SOURCE","YouTube captions"],["SYNTH","claude-fable-5"],["CLEAN","gpt-5.6-luna"],["VERIFY","gpt-5.6-luna"],["PARTICIPANTS","gpt-5.6-luna"],["TRANSLATE","gpt-5.6-luna"]],"title_alt":"Jason Fried：你唯一的竞争对手是成本","display_title_alt":null,"dek_alt":"Fried认为，成本而非竞争对手决定企业能否持续经营；低成本让利基产品只需找到“足够多”的客户。37signals以约62人、零外部融资、迁离AWS每年约节省1,000万美元及Basecamp每月299美元封顶，保留选择权；但AI可能在3年内终结软SaaS。","lang_alt":"ZH","tldr_md":"- **Fried's operating thesis is that a business's only real competition is its costs.** Competitors will \"do what they're going to do\" and you control none of it; what you control is spend and price, and \"as long as I make more than I spend, I get to stay in business.\" Low costs also shrink the demand problem — make what you yourself want, and you only need to find \"enough\" people like you, not the whole market. Senra's parallel: Microsoft's first 30 employees were Bill Gates, his secretary, and 28 programmers — \"no fat, all product.\"\n- **37signals runs about 62 people with no middle management, usually two-person feature teams, and profit-sharing paid in real cash.** COO and engineering-manager experiments were rolled back after the one question that \"answers pretty much every question\": knowing what I know now, would I hire them again? As an LLC with a four-person cap table, 10% of profits go to employees purely on longevity (units accrue up to ten years, role- and title-blind); roughly 20 of 62 people took six-figure bonuses in 2024 — \"no options, no RSUs, no stock, any of that BS.\"\n- **The balance-sheet philosophy is \"blubber\": cushy margins, zero outside funding, and every strategic option kept open.** Leaving AWS for their own data centers saves roughly ten million dollars — \"it's our money, man\" — and Fried is baffled by Silicon Valley losing billions on \"the highest margin product in history, software.\" Raising VC, in his telling, is the mirage of expanded options that leaves almost one outcome: build a big business or fail — \"most people blow right through what would've been a good business.\"\n- **Basecamp's pricing is capped at $299/month precisely to engineer durability — no whales, no Jenga.** He wants a \"static\" customer base where you could lose 100 random customers and be fine, versus the enterprise game of landing 2,000-seat accounts at 50 grand a month: \"You don't want customers that you cannot afford to lose.\" Durability, he argues, is \"about a lot of small things.\"\n- **Planning is day-by-day with a six-week maximum horizon — the squirrel, not the hockey stick.** The goal is to reach orbit and hold, making small, throwaway-able decisions rather than eight-month bets, which makes the business \"more antifragile.\" On money left on the table from never optimizing pricing or A/B testing: \"So what? … You get to the right size, and for whatever reason, you can't be content there. And you push a little bit too much, too hard, and you lose what was great about what you were doing.\"\n- **He is explicit that he could not build Basecamp again — and treats AI killing soft SaaS in three years as a negative-visualization scenario.** Second acts fail because founders \"don't know why it didn't work, and you don't know why it worked\"; Trader Joe's founder Joe Coulombe's closing-book regret is the cautionary tale. If AI ends soft SaaS in three years: \"Well, we had a great run.\"\n- **Product doctrine: software \"slides downhill\" because nothing physical pushes back, so every version must be fundamentally simpler.** He practices \"Galápagos\" design — no competitor-watching, inspiration from the Concept2 Rower, leaves, and birds instead of other software — and prizes the \"purity\" of early executions like the 1963 Rolex Daytona, which he personally prefers: additions that don't make the thing better are decay, not progress.\n- **The consumer-tech read is \"the great regression\" — and Bezos's advice to invest in what doesn't change.** A brand-new rental house needed a walk-through for the lights and an app to run the dishwasher; \"the best interface ever, was the switch,\" now a lost art like Roman concrete. Exceptions granted: Nest and Tesla's screen. The Bezos anchor: nobody in ten years wishes Amazon's service were worse, delivery slower, or prices higher — \"focus on the things in our business that don't change.\"\n","digest_md":"### 1. The founding pattern: build for yourself, then find \"enough\" people like you\n- Fried's origin story, told whole: at 15 or 16 he built a FileMaker Pro database called AudioFile to track tapes and CDs he loaned out, put a text file in the archive — \"If you like this, send me $20\" — uploaded it to AOL before the internet, and received an airmail envelope from Germany with a crisp $20 bill. \"That was the moment when it all clicked for me… There are probably other people out there like you who want what you want.\"\n- The economics behind the sentiment: as a solo teenager with no expenses he made about $20,000 a year, needing only a few thousand buyers. \"If you have a lot of costs… you have to find a lot of people like you. But if you keep your costs low… the ones you find really love what you do. And that's enough.\"\n\n### 2. \"Your only competition is your costs\"\n- The line that titles the episode, unpacked: a business is simply making more than you spend. Competitors \"are going to do what they're going to do. You can't control what they're going to put out there, what they're going to price it at… What I can control is how much it costs me to run my business, how much I sell my product for.\"\n- The stake: \"Isn't that what this is all about, staying in business? … I can't keep doing it if I make less than it costs me to make the things that I make.\" Senra ties it to the Founders canon — Walton, Jobs, Carnegie, Rockefeller all obsessed over costs — and to Gates's 30-person Microsoft: Gates, his secretary, and 28 programmers.\n\n### 3. Small teams because companies have miscommunication problems, not communication problems\n- 37signals is about 62 people today, with Fried also saying \"around 63 or 62\"; it got as high as about 80 and, in discussing middle management, he also referred to 83 people at one point. The company built things with 4 and 12 people in its early days. Fried's diagnosis: \"I don't think companies really have communication problems. They have miscommunication problems\" — layers and telephone games — and \"you actually end up making worse stuff the more people who are involved.\"\n- Teams making a feature usually have two people — one programmer and one designer — which \"keeps us honest. It prevents us from making things that we can't make with two people,\" yielding products with small surface area: \"You can see the whole thing, you can hold the whole thing.\"\n- A structural point on why quality holds: enterprise software is sold to buyers who force it on users, \"and everyone hates those products.\" At 37signals the buyer and the user are the same person.\n\n### 4. Management experiments, rolled back with one question\n- They tried a COO twice, with each role lasting about three years, and engineering managers for roughly a year: \"They were fine. They were good people. There wasn't enough work for them\" — and forcing invented work \"feels bad… they're wasting their professional life.\" Between David, the CTO, and the doers, \"it's like a game of telephone.\"\n- The mechanism worth stealing: every new hire's second year is treated as a rehire, decided by one question — \"Knowing what I know now, would I hire them again? And that answers pretty much every question… performance, attitude, culture fit, all that stuff.\" Applied to the roles themselves — would we create this position again? — the answer was no, and the positions were eliminated.\n\n### 5. \"Software slides downhill\" — the physics that isn't there\n- Fried's best design argument: a burning-hot mug or a handle-less mug announces its own badness — physics pushes back. \"In software, you don't get that. Software can be anything. It's infinitely malleable… it just expands forever and gets worse. Software slides downhill.\"\n- The countermeasure: Basecamp is reinvented every five or six years — 1→2 and 2→3 were total rewrites, 3→4 was not, and 4→5, which was in progress, was not — with the goal that each version is \"a little bit simpler in the fundamental ways,\" even if it has more features.\n- Why he finds this fun: \"My favorite thing in life, frankly, is to have an insight… I bounce into those insights very frequently, making software… That's where they come from, the shower and the software.\"\n\n### 6. He would not trade his business for anyone's — literally anyone's\n- On being inconsistent — despite 27 years in business, profitability every year, millions of lifetime customers, and hundreds of millions of dollars earned, he says he would not want to run another business: \"I don't find consistency interesting in any way, shape, or form. To me, it's all about the context.\"\n- The no-envy claim, pressed by Senra and defended flatly: \"You could pick anyone… It'd be a downgrade.\" Reason: \"I built the company I want to work at… If I had to do my thing someone else's way, it'd be a game of charades.\" Being content, he adds, \"is unfortunately not something that's talked enough about in my industry… grow, grow, grow… serial entrepreneurship. It's boring to me.\"\n- If he sold, he said he would like to shut his laptop and not use a computer for a year, while still using his phone to contact people; he also said he would not start another business.\n\n### 7. Envelopes and letters — and \"playing entrepreneur\"\n- The metaphor of the episode: business splits into envelope (the shell, brand, valuation, vehicle) and letter (the product). \"I'm a product guy… The business side just has to exist to hold the product.\" His caveat: envelope people are fine — \"you've got to know who you are.\"\n- \"Playing entrepreneur\" defined: spinning up businesses, logos, raises, valuations \"and there's nothing there of substance inside that yet… Then it's like a mad rush to get out at a certain valuation.\" The verdict, uncushioned: \"The idea of a business being a financial instrument is anathema to me. It's repellent, actually.\"\n\n### 8. Thin shell, orbit, and the discipline of \"so what?\"\n- Why thin: \"The more massive an object is, the more energy it takes to change its direction.\" A thick business puts distance between you, the customer, and the product; 37signals is \"a very thin business with a thick set of products.\"\n- His anti-hockey-stick chart: a rocket into orbit. \"You've got to break free of gravity. But then there's a point where you actually just want to sit in orbit and maintain… You're not pushing super hard.\" Growth for its own sake gets the standing reply: \"So what if you're massive and then you're twice as massive? So what? Why?\"\n- On admitted money left on the table — no pricing optimization, no constant A/B tests: \"Maybe someone else would come into my business and double the business overnight… I'm willing to accept that that's the case. My answer would be, 'So what?'\" The one optimization he endorses is making the product better, \"not to squeeze an extra $100,000 out of something.\"\n\n### 9. Not a CEO — 200 customer emails\n- On the title: \"Chief Executive Officer. Of what, again? … Yesterday, I answered 200 emails from my customers. Some people would say that's irresponsible for a CEO… I think it's the best thing you can do.\"\n- Senra's supporting case study: UPS founder Jim Casey, whose executives told him what he wanted to hear, had his driver pull over at every brown truck to talk directly to drivers — \"the person that's actually doing the work.\" Fried's parallel: everyone signing up for Basecamp sees a letter with his real email address. \"There's no AI. There's no assistant. There's no levels between at all.\"\n- The model he aspires to is Olivia's, the Chicago grocery-store owner who knew every customer by name: \"It actually frustrates me that I don't know all of our customers… Somehow it permeates me, and I get to feel what it's like to be them.\"\n\n### 10. Vinnie's sandwich shop and the beauty of \"enough\"\n- The Chicago Avenue sandwich shop — which Senra tentatively identified as Vinnie's, while Fried was unsure whether it was still in business — is open only as long as it has bread, with no posted hours; it usually closes around 2:30. Fried's honest wrestle with it: yes, they could get more bread — \"Okay, so where do you stop? … You can see how this doesn't end, and how a business like that could consume everything.\" His conclusion: \"There's something very simply beautiful about enough,\" with the acknowledged caveat that he's an outside observer who doesn't know that business's realities.\n- Offered 27 years of earnings compressed into 15, he'd take the 27 without hesitation: \"The money is a side effect of all of this.\" He cites Patrick O'Shaughnessy via Senra — \"the reward for good work is more work\" — as exactly why longevity beats speed.\n\n### 11. Plan like a squirrel: six weeks maximum, small units, antifragile\n- The metaphor: a squirrel crossing a field \"knows roughly where it wants to go… it scurries, and it stops and looks around… and it course-corrects.\" At 37signals, 99% of projects take six weeks or less; the cloud exit was the rare bigger exception. \"You know more about things, the closer they are to you.\"\n- The skewering of long-range planning: \"I've always been mystified by people who think they can figure out the next three years today, but they're afraid of figuring out tomorrow, tomorrow.\"\n- Why small units win: a bad day is behind you in 24 hours, versus eight-month decisions with contingencies that \"go sour.\" \"Make things small, tiny little units that you can throw them away… you become more antifragile.\" Missing big opportunities? \"Yes, maybe so. So what? If I can stay alive, doing the thing I'm doing… I don't need the other big opportunities.\"\n- When asked what success looks like in five years, Fried's answer is \"just more of this\"; Senra says \"I don't know\" and \"I don't care.\"\n\n### 12. Galápagos product design: don't look at competitors, look at a leaf\n- Fried very rarely studies rival products, deliberately: \"Everyone follows everybody else… people then build out of fear. 'They're launching this. I have to meet them.'\" The result is an industry where \"someone has a successful product, and then all future products for the next three years look just like theirs.\"\n- His inspiration diet is entirely outside software — buildings, furniture, watches, the Concept2, and the 4:45 p.m. light raking over California's hills — and he refuses to justify it commercially: \"Why does everything have to come back to business?\" His advice to designers thumbing through logo books: \"Go outside… if you want to find great colors, look at a bird. Don't look at a book.\"\n- The self-description: an insular group solving problems its own way, like the Galápagos. \"Some people hate the way our stuff looks and works. Fine. I don't care. We have enough people who love what we do.\"\n\n### 13. The Concept2 Rower as the perfect product\n- His favorite product, described from memory: under $1,000 — \"I think it's been under $1,000 forever\" — with a black-and-white LCD, not even LED, five rubberized buttons and, he thinks, two others, running on C or D batteries. \"No electricity, no plugging in, no recharging… It does exactly what it's supposed to do with nothing else.\" Verdict: \"A paper clip and a Concept2 Rower, it's hard to improve on both of those things.\"\n- The method embedded in it: \"I look at the products, not the companies. I look at the products and go, 'Oh, that's a great product. I bet that's a great company.'\" Crucially, the improvements over generations were functional — better, longer-lasting materials — \"not just to sell new models,\" which is why he's more attached to the brand.\n\n### 14. HEY as a love letter, and mistakes left in on purpose\n- The HEY pre-launch page was written mid-development, before he knew exactly what the product would be — \"It was the love behind the product.\" Email itself he calls a wonder of the world: no platforms required, anyone can reach anyone, \"as beautiful as the web.\" He blames Apple, Google, Yahoo, and Microsoft for making email products they did not care about.\n- His product demos are long and unedited: \"If I screw up two minutes in, I'm not going to go, 'Let's start over'… We are not a corporate entity hiding behind a structure… We don't have a board.\"\n- The Navajo rug story, as told to him by a collector in Mineral Point, Wisconsin: the off-stitches are not regarded as errors but as \"a moment in time\" — if you stumble on a path, \"you can't take that stumble back.\" Fried's extension: \"Mistakes are a concept we put on ourselves… Are these rugs worse because there's a stitch off? No… They're better.\" He qualified his broad criticism — not all companies, but many — saying companies are \"afraid of everything, of saying something wrong… That is not endearing. I think people want to do business with people.\"\n- He invokes, with uncertainty, Christopher Alexander's idea of a quality in buildings made by people in native villages without architects: \"a perfect fit for what they wanted for themselves.\"\n\n### 15. A toolmaker who wants to live closer to the ground\n- Identity, aligned with Tobi Lütke: \"I make tools, they just happen to be made of software… It's a lever that lets you do more with it than you could without it.\" He rejects \"tech industry\" and even \"entrepreneur\" as labels.\n- Why physical things: \"Software looks the same over time. A great building, a great brick… bricks are beautiful because they look even better as they get older.\" He collects rocks — emphatically not crystals — and says \"I would much rather lie on the ground than fly in the air.\"\n- Senra cites Mark Leonard of Constellation Software saying that building stone walls was one of the most fulfilling jobs he had, because he could return decades later and point to what he had made. He also describes Christopher Nolan as someone who wants to live in an analog world: no cellphone, scripts physically delivered and taken back.\n- Fried's reframe of Senra's analog credo: \"Whatever you said doesn't matter, actually. It's that you know who you are… A lot of people don't know what they like. They like what other people like… They kind of run someone else's business, in a sense.\" And: \"You don't need to pick sides. You can love digital, and you can love physical.\"\n\n### 16. Psychedelics, the radio dial, and the chip on the younger Fried's shoulder\n- The rejection letter: web designer Dave Siegel responded to Fried's award submission with \"You suck. Find another day job.\" — \"And I loved that… The only time I'm ever competitive is when someone slights me.\" He says he came into his own in his forties, and he is 51, helped partly by psychedelic experiences.\n- Senra's pushback, personal and firm: a cousin died of a heroin overdose, and his father was jailed for dealing — \"I've never seen somebody high on cocaine make a great decision… I'll just not do drugs.\" Fried doesn't proselytize — \"I'm not here to convince you\" — but describes mushrooms as \"an avalanche of insights.\"\n- Two images worth keeping: the 1950s car radio — \"95.7 is you. And psychedelics let me turn the knob a little bit and tune into something else that's always been there, but I couldn't hear that frequency\" — and the 3D puzzle he finally turned around: \"Everything's a lot simpler from behind… The front of things is a front. The back of things is real.\"\n\n### 17. Blubber: fat reserves, a $10M cloud exit, and six-figure cash bonuses\n- The coinage, which Fried said had come to him the previous night: \"I don't want to run a very tight-margin business where I can't make mistakes… We take risks. We don't put ourselves at risk… I'd rather just have the farm than not have the farm.\" The fat metaphor extended: 6% body fat is cool, \"but it's not a good thing to live that way for a long period of time\" — the blubber carried them through the dot-com crash, 2008, and COVID.\n- On why they bothered leaving AWS to save something like $10 million: \"It's because it's our money, man. We don't have outside funding, and I don't want any outside funding.\" Marketing spend over 27 years: \"a rounding error.\" His standing bafflement: Silicon Valley companies are \"blowing billions\" on \"the highest-margin product in history: software\"; he also acknowledged that software has some data costs. \"It seems so incredibly irresponsible to me.\"\n- The distribution machinery: an LLC with four people on the cap table; 10% of profits to employees annually by longevity, not seniority — units accrue monthly, maxing at ten years, so a ten-year support person earning roughly $90,000–$100,000 gets the same profit share as a ten-year principal engineer. About 20 of 62 people received six-figure bonuses in 2024; Fried noted that the 2025 books were not yet closed. Versus competitors promising stock on a down-and-to-the-right chart: \"I feel bad for those people because they were promised something they'll never, ever get.\"\n\n### 18. No post-mortems, no targets — because you can't actually know why it worked\n- Fried refuses retrospectives: \"Backward is a story you're telling yourself about what you remember about something, and it's probably not true.\" Post-launch analyses produce false certainty: \"You're going to find some reasons that you're going to believe, but had you done that again, it may have turned out differently… If you want to find certainty, you're going to find it, because you'll convince yourself of it. I think it's really dangerous.\" Learning happens forward: \"You learn by doing.\"\n- Senra reads Rick Rubin's answer on self-criticism — \"If it could be better, it's not done… there's nothing to be critical of. It's almost like a diary entry\" — and Fried co-signs: \"That's exactly how I see things.\" The corollary at 37signals: no revenue, sales, or user targets. \"A target shouldn't make me do better work… The product is the measurement.\" Success, per Jobs via Senra: \"Did I make something I'm proud of?\" Fried's version: \"Would I want to do this again? … If so, it's successful.\"\n\n### 19. \"No way could I do it again\" — Trader Joe's, Bob Dylan, and the AI scenario\n- Fried is categorical that he couldn't rebuild Basecamp: \"I don't think I'm good enough again to do what I did before. I don't have the stamina… I would have the curiosity, but I know that wouldn't carry me enough.\" Senra's cautionary tale: Joe Coulombe sold Trader Joe's out of fear, spent decades on investing and consulting, and closed his autobiography with \"I wasn't true. I regret selling.\" The book was published the same week he died.\n- The mature alternative, via a Bob Dylan interview that Fried tentatively recalled as \"16 Minutes\" with Morley Safer: \"I used to be able to do that… I know I couldn't do it again, but I can do other things now.\" If your identity is \"entrepreneur,\" you're forced into a sequel you'll likely resent.\n- The AI scenario, practiced deliberately: he and David do negative visualization — \"What if this just changes the whole damn landscape, and soft SaaS is just dead in three years? Our answer is, 'Well, we had a great run.'\" And the mushroom coda that anchors it: asking the guide to replay the song from his first trip, getting nothing, and laughing — \"You cannot have the same experience twice… That thing happened then, and this is now.\" He now applies it to his kids, 11 and 7: savor it; once he's 12, he's 12.\n\n### 20. Optionality: VC money cuts off nearly every off-ramp; equal pricing removes the whales\n- The core independence claim: profitability is independence — \"no one can tell us what to do. We actually feel obligated to do things nobody would allow us to do… 'No one would let us do this. Let's do it!'\" No dry cleaner raises VC; but in his industry, the moment they raise, \"they've cut off almost every possible off-ramp outcome, because now they have to be a big business or they fail… Most people blow right through what would've been a good business, and it's now not good enough for someone else.\" His list of retained options: go public, raise, sell to private equity, quit — \"I don't want to. That is gold to me, is optionality.\"\n- The pricing corollary: Basecamp caps at $299/month no matter the seat count, refusing the \"50 grand a month, 2,000 seats\" enterprise game. He wants customers like TV static — equal-sized dots: \"You should be able to pick out… 100 random customers and lose them and be okay… What you don't want are a bunch of outlier companies that you cannot afford to lose\" — no Jenga, and software built for the whole base rather than a few whales.\n\n### 21. Purity, the great regression, and Bezos on what doesn't change\n- On the viral watch post: Fried prefers the 1963 Rolex Daytona to later versions \"because it's the purest form of the concept… Everything else from there has been layered on because they need to sell more.\" Senra supplies the distillation Fried adopts on the spot: \"You're adding to it, but you're not making it better\" — echoed by Jimmy Iovine's line to a young Rick Rubin, \"Oh, I wish I could still make something that simple,\" and Rubin's ruthless-edit test: add song six only if it makes the album better. The Porsche 911 proof: a burned-out car on PCH was instantly identifiable — \"It's a 997, in fact.\"\n- The rant, from renting his parents a brand-new house: a dishwasher that required app registration before first use, laggy touchscreen thermostats where you can't tell current temperature from target, TVs where \"you don't turn a TV on anymore, you boot the TV up,\" and a formal walk-through for the lights. \"This is not a product built by people who are using the product they're building.\" He calls it \"the great regression\"; exceptions granted to Nest, a product based on the original Honeywell/Dreyfuss round-dial design, and Tesla's \"outstanding\" screen, while other carmakers retreat to buttons.\n- The light switch as lost technology: \"The best interface ever, was the switch… It will be rediscovered one day\" — like Roman concrete, an art the industry forgot. The strategic anchor from Jeff Bezos, whom Fried described as a partner who owns a percentage of the company, given when they first met: \"Focus on the things in our business that don't change\" — nobody in ten years will wish Amazon's customer service were worse, delivery slower, or prices higher. \"It's very easy to lose sight of those, because they can become boring.\"\n\n### 22. Be the oak tree: time is the filter, intuition is the engine\n- The durability metaphor: 37signals as a slow-growing bur oak versus the cottonwood — fast, noisy, messy, and, Fried said, dying in \"about 75 years or something like that.\" Every era brings a \"Basecamp killer\": \"Very few of them can withstand and outlive the storms… People are like, 'How do you compete?' Well, we just stay around longer than everybody else.\" Senra's maxims alongside: \"You just stay in the game long enough to get lucky\" — illustrated with Coca-Cola and refrigeration, and Shopify and COVID — and \"time is the best filter,\" via Munger's seamless web of deserved trust.\n- On intuition, his decision system: no focus groups, no testing that matters — \"I've never seen a spreadsheet that's ever made me do anything… I'm very careful not to put too much weight into something that purports to be more valuable than some other feeling I have just because it has numbers on it.\" Refinement is \"area under the curve\": make more decisions and they tumble \"into a nice, smooth orb\" — but intuition \"has to be used… to really be enjoyed,\" which loops back to independence.\n- Senra's closing pushback on Fried's \"I don't work hard\": 40 hours a week over 27 years is roughly 54,000 hours on one thing, by Senra's calculation — almost nobody has done that. Fried's shrug is the thesis in miniature: \"I was just laying bricks. I just keep doing it… and then it just adds up.\"\n","transcript_md":"David Senra\n\nI want to start with what you told me last night: You feel the best way to make a product—or the best way to make a product for you—is to be the actual customer. You make the products that you want to use.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, I don’t know how to do it any other way. This is how I’ve always done it.\n\nBack when I was 15 or 16, I started making software with something called FileMaker Pro, which is way back when you could make databases for yourself. I made a database to keep track of my music collection because I was loaning out tapes and CDs to friends and never getting them back. I thought, “I need a way to keep track of this stuff because I keep losing these things.”\n\nI made this product, which I eventually called AudioFile, for myself. It was just this database, and I made a nice interface because I liked art and making stuff. I eventually decided to put a little text file in the software archive that said, “If you like this, send me $20.” I put it up on AOL, so this was pre-internet.\n\nI got an envelope—actually, an airmail envelope, one of those old-school envelopes with the red-and-blue check marks—from Germany. I opened it up, and somebody had printed out the piece of paper that I had included with the software and given me a crisp $20 U.S. bill.\n\nThat was the moment when it all clicked for me: Make stuff for yourself. There are probably other people out there like you who want what you want, so make it available for sale. You are the customer. You are the audience. It’s you, you, you—and then there will be other people just like you.\n\nWe’re not all that unique. There are plenty of people who like what we like, plenty of people who don’t, and plenty of products for them, too. But there are enough people who like what you like. That’s where I got started.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou have this interesting idea that if you’re just making what you want, it doesn’t matter. You just have to go and collect more people who like the things that you like, and ignore the people who don’t.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes, and this is all tied into keeping your costs low. If you have a lot of costs—a big company with high costs—you have to find a lot of people like you. But if you keep your costs low and your company small, you don’t have to.\n\nAt the time, it was just me when I was doing the software thing. I was making, I don’t know, $20,000 a year selling software as a solo person when I was 16 or 17 years old. I went into college for a little while as well. That’s an amazing little side business—or a huge side business when you’re that age—because I had no expenses.\n\nIt was easy. I only had to find a few thousand people to pay me $20 to eventually make that money. But if I had had a big business, a lot of people, and a lot of overhead, I would have had to find a lot of people like me, and that’s harder.\n\nThe whole game for me is to make things as simple and easy for me as possible. Keep your costs low, keep your company as small as you possibly can, and make great stuff. Then you don’t have to find as many people just like you. But the ones you find really love what you do, and that’s enough.\n\nYou can stop there conceptually and say, “I’m going to make stuff for me and people like me. I don’t need the whole world to like what I like. I need enough of a small world to like what I like, and we’re golden.”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou put it in a very interesting way. You said your real competition is your costs.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIs that the line that you have?\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. It’s your only competition.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nExplain that.\n\nJason Fried\n\nA business is very simple: You have to make more than you spend. That’s a business, basically. You can keep borrowing money, and then you can borrow more than you spend, but eventually you have to make more than you spend.\n\nIf you’re making more than you spend, then your competition is your costs. That’s what you’re really in business against: how much it costs you to stay in business.\n\nIt’s not all the other alternatives that are on the market. Of course they exist, and they’re real, but you can’t do anything about them. They’re going to do what they’re going to do, and you’re going to do what you’re going to do. You can’t control what they put out there, what they price it at, or all the things they do.\n\nWhat I can control is how much it costs me to run my business and how much I sell my product for. As long as I make more than I spend, I get to stay in business.\n\nIsn’t that what this is all about—staying in business? That’s what it’s all about, because I like this. We like this. I want to keep doing this. I can’t keep doing it if I don’t stay in business. I can’t keep doing it if I make less than it costs me to make the things that I make.\n\nI’m always thinking about the only competition I really have on an annual basis: making sure that we make more as a company than it costs us to run the company. That’s my real competition.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThis is something I talk about over and over again on my other podcast, Founders. It’s kind of weird how every single one of history’s greatest entrepreneurs was obsessed with watching costs, from Sam Walton to Steve Jobs when he first started Apple to Andrew Carnegie and Rockefeller.\n\nThis theme reappears over and over again. We were talking the other day about how fascinating it is that you can have a software company with insane margins and still lose money.\n\nWhen I talk to young founders, I tell them, “Just go study the early days of Microsoft.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nBill Gates—one of the most interesting stories is that the first 30 employees of Microsoft were Bill Gates, his secretary, and 28 programmers.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, amazing. No fat.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThere was no fat at all.\n\nJason Fried\n\nNo fat. All product.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThat’s something you talk about a lot. Can you talk about the importance of keeping costs low, having small teams, and essentially having no fat anywhere?\n\nJason Fried\n\nWe have 62 people at 37signals. We’ve gotten as high as 80 at some point, and now we’re around 63 or 62, which feels really good.\n\nBut we also built a lot of things when we were much smaller. We had 12 people way back in the day, or 4 people in the way, way, way early days when we started out. I’ve always been comfortable with small teams.\n\nI think small teams work better and are better. There’s less room for miscommunication, because I don’t think companies really have communication problems. They have miscommunication problems. When you have too many people and too many layers, someone misses something and someone else has to repeat what happened. I want to avoid all of that and get rid of the things that get in the way of making good stuff.\n\nI actually think too many people often get in the way, and you end up making worse stuff the more people who are involved. We just try to keep the team small.\n\nAny team we have making something is usually 2 people: 1 programmer and 1 designer working on a feature. That’s pretty much it. Sometimes someone else will come in here and there, but for the most part, it’s 2 people.\n\nIt also keeps us honest. It prevents us from making things that we can’t make with 2 people. It keeps everything tight, simple, and clear. You keep parlaying that and adding it all up, and you end up with a very tight product with a small surface area.\n\nYou can see the whole thing, hold the whole thing, and know how it all works. Your customers can see the whole thing, hold the whole thing, and know how it works. That’s all people want.\n\nPeople don’t want complicated stuff. They don’t want software full of things they don’t use. People will sometimes buy things like that because they’re sold things like that, but when it really comes down to it, that’s not what they actually want.\n\nThe people who buy our software are the people who use the product. A lot of enterprise companies sell software to a buyer who then makes other people use the product, and everyone hates those products. But the people who use our products buy our products. It’s the same person, so they’re looking for something that just works really well.\n\nI’ve found there’s no better way to do that than to keep the company small and tight. That goes everywhere. We don’t have any middle management. We tried it a little bit, which is why we had 83 people at one point. We hired a few more people to build out a team, then pulled back from that and said, “That wasn’t helpful.”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhat did you not like about that?\n\nJason Fried\n\nThere are 2 people on the executive team: me and David, my business partner. That’s it.\n\nWe had a COO for a while. They were fine and they were good people, but frankly, there wasn’t enough work for them to do. They were just doing things that didn’t really need to be done.\n\nWhen you do stuff that doesn’t really need to be done, you feel bad for them in a sense because they’re wasting their professional life doing things they don’t really want to do and that don’t need to get done. That doesn’t feel good.\n\nWe’ve had engineering managers, and we found again that there were too many levels between David, who is the CTO, and the people doing the work.\n\nHe had to talk to someone else, who talked to someone else, and it was like a game of telephone. Things were lost in translation along the way. We tried those things. We had some thoughts that maybe this would be a better thing for us to do, and it turned out not to be a better thing to do.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nHow long does it take you to realize?\n\nJason Fried\n\nA year.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOkay.\n\nJason Fried\n\nBasically. COO roles were longer. They were 3 years. We tried it twice. For the most part, we give everybody about a year to prove themselves at 37signals. We hire somebody, and they have about a year until we decide if we're going to hire them again. That's how I think of the second year: it's a rehire.\n\nIt's not like a performance review, where we look at numbers. It's one simple question. If I can, I always try to boil everything down to a question that answers all the other questions. The question we ask after the first year with any new employee is, “Knowing what I know now, would I hire them again?” That answers pretty much every question.\n\nIt answers every question about performance, attitude, culture fit, all that stuff. If I know what I know now, would I hire them again? It turned out with the management stuff, it wasn't even about the people. It was more like, “Now that we know what we know, would we create this position again?” The answer was no. So, we eliminated those positions and never rehired for them. That's how we got back to a smaller size.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nDoes that work with products too, or features of products?\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt can. It's harder.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou've rolled back people.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou've rolled back entire products.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nDo you ever roll back features?\n\nJason Fried\n\nWe have done that in some ways. Typically, every 5 or 6 years, we reinvent Basecamp, which is our main product, our biggest product.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nDo you write it from scratch?\n\nJason Fried\n\nWe have in the past. From Basecamp 1 to Basecamp 2 was a total rewrite. From 2 to 3 was a total rewrite. From 3 to 4 was not, and from 4 to 5, which we're working on now, is not. But it's a chance to revisit a lot of fundamental assumptions about what the product does and how it works.\n\nI'm trying to buck the trend. Human nature is about expansion, typically. Things tend to expand. But in the physical world, there are also limits that push back on those expansions. If this mug were burning hot, we would know that's a bad design. If there's no handle here and I had to hold it this way, maybe it's not a good mug. There are physics here.\n\nIf this thing were made of a really, really fragile material, or something that would melt if it got wet, you'd be like, “That's a bad design.” There are things telling you this is a bad design. In software, you don't get that. Software can be anything. It's infinitely malleable.\n\nWhat ends up happening is, because there's nothing pushing back, it just expands forever and gets worse. Software slides downhill. It gets better for a while, then slides downhill. I'm conscious of that, and I'm always trying to make sure that every new version we make of something is a little bit simpler in the fundamental ways than the previous version. It might have more features, but the experience is hopefully simpler.\n\nThat's the big challenge, and frankly, the most fun part of building products over the long term is asking, “Can we buck the trend of having them slide downhill and instead maintain them or make them even better over time?”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhy is that fun?\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt's hard, and that's fun. It's a bit of a puzzle. It's a bit of pushing back against the forces of nature, which again would be to expand. It's forcing us to come up with clever solutions to problems, more creative solutions to problems.\n\nIt forces me to understand what something really is, not what it could be or what I think other people think of it as, but what it's really trying to do. It's fun to have these insights.\n\nMy favorite thing in life, frankly, is to have an insight. I don't get to decide when I have them, right? No one does. You just have one. Maybe it's in the shower, maybe it's whatever. You just have an insight.\n\nIt's cool to work on a problem in software and then have an insight about how to make it simpler. For whatever reason, I bounce into those insights very frequently making software, more so than pretty much anything else I do. So, it's fun to make something new because I get to have more insights into how to make it simpler and better. For whatever reason, that's where they come from: the shower and the software.\n\nA lot of the conversations that Jason and I have are about craft, about the importance of putting your soul into your work and making the best possible product that you can. Our conversations remind me a lot of the conversations I have with my friend, Karim, who is the cofounder and CTO of Ramp. Ramp is the presenting sponsor of this podcast, and Karim is one of the greatest technical minds working in finance today. Karim is obsessed with crafting a high-quality product and using the latest technology to constantly create better experiences for his customers. Ramp has one of the most talented technical teams in finance, and they use rapid, relentless iteration to make their product better every day. In the last year, Ramp has shipped over 300 new features. Ramp is completely committed to using AI to make a better experience for their customers and automate as much of your business's finances as possible. In fact, Karim just wrote this: \"AI is all I think about these days. It is our duty to be first movers and push limits so we can make the greatest possible product experience for our customers.\" Many of the fastest-growing and most innovative companies in the world are running their business on Ramp. Make sure you go to ramp.com to learn how they can help your business save time and money. Let AI chase your receipts and close your books so you can use your time and energy building great things for your customers. Get started today by going to ramp.com.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWe were talking a lot about this conversation I just had with Tobi Lütke. I know both you and I admire him.\n\nJason Fried\n\nOh, yeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhat I love about Tobi, and what you have in you as well, is that when you talk to him, the next response out of his mouth is not predictable.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSome of his views are not correlated with one another, which also makes it really interesting.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou've been running your company. You started your company when you were 25.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou've been running it for 27 years.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou guys have been profitable every single year.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou have millions of customers over the lifetime of the business. You've made hundreds of millions of dollars. And yet you told me that if you ever sell the company, you don't want to look at a computer again.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, I don't. First of all, I don't like being consistent. I'm not that interested in being consistent. Your point about saying something that conflicts with something else you said, to me, it's all about context. It's not about consistency. I don't find consistency interesting in any way, shape, or form.\n\nTo me, it's all about the context, which is why I don't like to plan. I don't have long-term plans. I like to make things up as I go. That's all tied into that.\n\nI don't particularly like business. I like running my business. I figured out how to run my business, but the idea of me running another business, I don't want to do that. Maybe I could create another one that's mine, and I would like it, but I don't think I could, actually.\n\nI think we're a product of timing, teams, the right people at the right time, the right ideas at the right time, and all that stuff. That's what made this thing and continues this thing. But to start over again, to run a business? No, thank you.\n\nFrankly, the other thing is, I would never trade my business for anyone else's business. I don't want anyone else's business. I don't want to put myself in someone else's shoes. I know how to do my thing, and that's enough for me.\n\nI don't need to stroke my ego and go, “I could do this again somewhere else. I could turn something...” I don't think I could do this ever again, but I don't need to, and that's okay.\n\nThis sense of being comfortable with what you've built and what you're working on now, of it being enough, is a very peaceful place to be for me. I think that's unfortunately not something that's talked enough about in my industry, which is tech. It's “Grow, grow, grow, get as big as you can, sell valuations, do it again, serial entrepreneurship.” It's boring to me. All that's boring.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOkay, there are a million things I want to unpack there—\n\nJason Fried\n\nLet's go. Let's do it.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nBecause you said a bunch of things.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThe serial entrepreneurship I want to hit on, because you and I were talking about the conversation I had with John Mackey—\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhere he was referencing some of his friends who just love to start. You were like, “Oh, I actually have this metaphor that I want to start talking about,” and it is envelopes and letters.\n\nJason Fried\n\nEnvelopes and letters.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah, okay.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd then we'll go back to the fact that you don't like business—\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd that you only like... And you're not... Really important, too—don't let me forget—is that you have no sense of envy, I know you well enough now—\n\nJason Fried\n\nI try not to. Well, yes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nToward other people's businesses.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI don't think that is an act.\n\nJason Fried\n\nNo.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI would not trade my business for anyone's business, so I don't envy anyone's business. In fact, it would be a downgrade. Anyone's. You could pick anyone, right?\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOh, you've got to explain that.\n\nJason Fried\n\nIf you got to decide, you're like, “Jason, would you trade this business?” No. Any business, I wouldn't take. I'd take mine over anyone else's business. So, I don't have—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhat is the underlying thought there? It's just like...\n\nJason Fried\n\nI built the company I want to work at. I built the business I want to be in. No one else has that. I have that. That's my thing.\n\nThey have their thing, and I have my thing. I love what I've built. It's great. I'm very happy with it, and it's a good fit for me. I don't want to wear someone else's clothes. I don't want to do someone else's stuff. I don't want to live up to someone else's expectations.\n\nWe have ours. We do our thing our way, and that's it. If I had to do my thing someone else's way, it'd be a game of charades. There are a lot of people, I think, playing entrepreneur. I don't want to play entrepreneur.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhat does “playing entrepreneur” mean to you?\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt means a lot of things to me, but let's get into the envelope thing, because this is part of that.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOkay.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI remember being an envelope guy when I was getting started. To me, there are basically 2 sides of business: the envelope and the letter. The envelope is the outside, the shell, the business—the vehicle that holds the letter. The letter is the product or products.\n\nI'm a product guy. I love product. That's all I care about. The business side just has to exist to hold the product, right? That's the vehicle in which the product travels. But I don't care about the envelope so much.\n\nThere are lots of people who do, though. I remember this early on, when I first started my business. I was thinking about the brand and the business, how big it could be, how to describe it, and what to call it. That's all envelope work. That's all on the outside.\n\nThere are a number of people who are envelope people, and that's fine. All of this is fine. What I'm getting at is that you've got to know who you are, what you want out of yourself, and what you want to do. If you're an envelope person, that's fine. If you're a product-letter person, that's fine, but you've got to know who you are.\n\nI know I'm not an envelope person. I don't just want to build shells that get filled, sell them, and build another shell. I want to work on the letter, and the envelope is just the thinnest little thing that needs to be there to hold the letter.\n\nI think playing entrepreneur is spinning up businesses all the time, making all sorts of stuff, giving it a name and a logo, trying to raise money, coming up with valuations, and talking about all this stuff when there's nothing of substance inside yet. Maybe there will be, but in a lot of cases, there's nothing. There are just losses.\n\nThen it's a mad rush to get out at a certain valuation for other people who put money in. That's like turning a business into an asset, a financial instrument. It's just not interesting to me. I want to make things. I want to build products, and that's what I do.\n\nAgain, that's what we do. The idea of a business being a financial instrument is anathema to me. It's repellent, actually.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou just used the words “thin shell” to describe the envelope. Why do you want a thin shell?\n\nJason Fried\n\nI want it to be a thin shell.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhat does that mean?\n\nJason Fried\n\nI would say this: The more massive an object is, the more energy it takes to change its direction, right? This is just getting back to basic physics. When I think of this stuff, sometimes these metaphors don't perfectly line up, but in my head, I think of a thick business as something that's hard to change. It's heavy and massive.\n\nThere's too much distance between it and the customers, and between it and the product. There's space, right? If you imagine something very thick, this is the thing that matters, and you've got to go through all this and compress it down to get to the thing that matters. I don't like that.\n\nI think the thing that matters should be big, and the rest of it should be as thin as possible. That's what we've tried to build at 37signals. It's a very thin business with a thick set of products that are good, solid, and real. They generate real profits and are real businesses. The rest of it is just enough to hold it all together.\n\nThat's my vision for business. It's not the only vision. Plenty of people way more successful than me don't see it this way. I don't care. This is just how I see it, and how I'm sharing it.\n\nIt's mainly to show people that you don't have to go big. It doesn't have to be a big, thick, heavy, busy company. It can be very thin, focus on the product, and get to a place where you can find out if people like you. Get to this place where enough is enough, and then maintain.\n\nAnother way to think about this for me—I always go back to these weird metaphors—is the hockey-stick chart, right? That is unappealing to me. I prefer a metaphor where it's more like a rocket into orbit.\n\nYou've got to get off the ground, and you've got to break free of gravity. But then there's a point where you actually just want to sit in orbit and maintain. You want to be within a certain range and fluctuate a little bit up and a little bit down, but be in this comfortable place where you're just orbiting.\n\nYou're not pushing super hard anymore. You're maintaining a level of quality, maintaining a level of enjoyment, and just orbiting now. I think that's a really wonderful place for businesses to be.\n\nI wouldn't encourage you to be trying to get to orbit in year 2. You've got to be on the ride up to break free of all the forces that are holding you back. But then you should also find a place where you can settle into an orbit, versus people who I think are just constantly trying to grow, grow, grow and get as big as they possibly can.\n\nI always say, “Why?” What if you're massive and then you're twice as massive? So what? Why? What's that all about? They may have an answer for you. I don't know what the answer would be, other than just growing for growth's sake. But I'm a big fan of getting somewhere and then holding.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhen I think of you, I think of one of your maxims that you repeat the most. I hear you say, “So what?” all the time.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. “So what?” With all those questions.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah. Explain more about that.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYou'd have to ask a question, and I would be like, “So what? I don't know.” Why grow? Maybe that's not a good example.\n\nFor example, we're definitely leaving money on the table. I'm sure of it. We don't optimize our pricing. I'm not constantly testing pricing. We're not constantly A/B testing. I'm certain there's some formula that we're not following that could lead to more growth, more revenue, more whatever, and my answer is, “So what?”\n\nI'm very comfortable with where we are. We've got a great business: high margins, very predictable. We make new stuff all the time. We enjoy ourselves. We have a great time. I don't want to f*** that up.\n\nI think people f*** it up all the time. You get to the right size, and for whatever reason, you can't be content there. You push a little bit too much, too hard, and you lose what was great about what you were doing.\n\nThis whole thing about money being on the table—maybe there is, and maybe there isn't. Maybe there's a way to optimize, and maybe there isn't. It doesn't interest me, so it's “so what?” to that. I don't really care.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nTell me if this observation that I have about you is correct.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou seem to have an inherent, natural revulsion against optimization.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, I don't like optimization.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOkay.\n\nJason Fried\n\nHere's the consistency thing: It's all about context. I don't like optimization around numbers. We can make $5 million on this, but it would be amazing if we could make $5.1 million if we did X, Y, Z. I don't care about the X, Y, Z to make $5.1 million.\n\nBut I am interested in optimizing a product to make it better. That, to me, is a worthwhile optimization. It's better for me because I use it, and it's better for our customers because they use it. That's fun.\n\nSqueezing out an extra $100,000 off $5 million or something is not fun. It's boring. Beyond boring, actually. I don't even know what would be beyond that, but I'm not interested in it at all. I'd rather spend the money making the thing I make better.\n\nThat is the thing I'm here for—not to squeeze an extra $100,000 or an extra $1 million out of something. I don't care. It doesn't matter. There's a point where you're doing well enough that it shouldn't matter anymore.\n\nNow, that might make me a bad CEO. Maybe someone else would come into my business and double the business overnight. That might be totally true, and I'm willing to accept that that's the case. My answer would be, “So what?” I don't care.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI don't even think you think of yourself as a CEO. And there goes the “so what” again.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYou asked for it.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nNo, I don't think you can help yourself. I don't think you think of yourself as a CEO. I don't. I don't actually even like the term, frankly.\n\nJason Fried\n\nOkay.\n\nLike, executive officer? What? Of what? I make products. I run the company with David. David and I run it together. I don't need the CEO.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nHow do you say it?\n\nJason Fried\n\nChief Executive Officer. Of what, again? Of what? We make decisions. That's what we do. We make decisions. We make products. We hire great people that we like. We find people with zero drama. We put together a team. We set out to make things.\n\nWe take really good care of people and really good care of our customers. We make good products that we really like—great products, hopefully, right? I've got to leave a little bit of room there for some humility. We can always make better products, so I'm not going to call our products fantastic. They are good, great. There's always room for making them better.\n\nBut as far as being a CEO and whatever that's supposed to mean, I don't know what the hell that means. Yesterday, I answered 200 emails from my customers.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSome people would say that's irresponsible for a CEO to spend their time emailing customers.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI think it's the best thing you can do.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nBut I don't think of myself as a CEO.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI would say, whoever says that's not a good use of your time—\n\nJason Fried\n\nA lot of people say it, dude.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah, but they need to listen to Founders because they're all like this.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThe best entrepreneurs—\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n—and founders in history—\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n—and I think what you and I bond over is exactly that.\n\nJason Fried\n\nAll I care about is products. I don't care about anything else.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYes. I think the way you think of yourself is as a designer.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIs that correct?\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes. Sure.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOkay. That's a little presumptuous. I think of it—\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes, fine.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou're not a presumptuous person. I didn't mean it that way.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI know you didn't.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah, but when I talk to you, it's like you've just designed everything in your life.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI like to make things.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI'll just say that.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou're a very thoughtful guy, and you see how much thought you've put into the design of everything in your life. It just happens that you've also put a lot of thought into designing products in the business, again, to fit exactly who you are as a person.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, as best I can. I have a family, and I have kids, and you don't always get things the way you want them to be, right?\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah. But you do your best, and you live within a system that you're proud of and happy with, and that's, I think, a big part of it.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThe best founders—I see this over and over again—they're always... You said something about the thickness of the envelope and all the stuff that's between the person running the company and the customer.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYou have to make that as small or almost nonexistent as possible. One of my favorite examples is this.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThis example from over 100 years ago: Jim Casey, the founder of UPS.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nUh-huh.\n\nJason Fried\n\nWhat he realized is that he had all these executives. He paid attention to incentives and realized they would, over time, just tell him what he wanted to hear. Therefore, he was getting—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOf course.\n\nJason Fried\n\n—his ass kissed all the time and not getting useful information. So he was like, \"Forget this. I don't want to talk to them.\"\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nHe had a driver, and they would drive on the streets, and he just said, \"Every time you see a brown truck—a brown UPS truck—you pull over,\" and he would just talk directly to the drivers.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAwesome.\n\nJason Fried\n\nHe spent all his time—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAwesome.\n\nJason Fried\n\n—talking to the person—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah. That's doing the work.\n\nJason Fried\n\n—that's actually doing the work for the customer.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThey know the most. I don't think anybody is saying, \"Jeff Bezos.\" I know he's a partner of yours. He owns a percentage of your company. He railed about this forever.\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd he made every single executive spend a day or a week or a month—whatever it was—\n\nJason Fried\n\nOn support or whatever.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n—on customer support.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. We do the same thing. We haven't done that for a bit, but we used to do that, and we should do it again, actually. We used to have this thing called Everyone on Support, where people would do it for a day and rotate through the company. Mostly so I would do it, and so David would do it. And now I do it anyway, but it's very important.\n\nWhen I lived in Chicago, there was a grocery store down the street called Olivia's. There still is. I got to know the owner, and I appreciated the fact that he got to know his customers personally, because they'd walk into the store and he would say hello, right? That's how I got to know him.\n\nI don't, unfortunately, have that opportunity. We have hundreds of thousands of people who use our products, and it actually frustrates me that I don't know all of our customers. On the street, I could walk past 75 of our customers on a given day, and I wouldn't know that. He would know, because he would know who they are, and he knew their family—the whole thing.\n\nSo I've always tried, as best I can, to get as close to our customers as possible. I can't get as close to our customers; we have too many of them, in that sense. But whenever you sign up for Basecamp, the first thing you see is a letter from me with my email address, with my signature and my email address, and I want my customers to email me. I don't want to hide from anybody.\n\nThere's no AI. There's no assistant. There's no levels between at all. Just write me, and people do all the time. We have our email address in our books as well. I want to get as close as possible to the people who use the things that we make—not just to make them happy, because I want to make myself happy, too. We are the first customer of our products.\n\nBut I also want to understand what they're doing with them, the language they use, how they describe them, and who they are. I want to know these things, because somehow it permeates me. I get to feel what it's like to be them and understand what it's like for them to use the lever we've made for them to move something.\n\nThere's no other way for me to do that than to just share my email address, because I don't get to meet people in person like this guy who runs a grocery store. But I love businesses like that. I love the dry cleaner who's been there for 40 years. I love the local grocery store. I just love businesses. Those, to me, are so much more interesting than the billion-dollar whatever.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhy?\n\nJason Fried\n\nThat's a great question. I feel like they're more real. I like real things, whatever that means. Define it however you'd like, but a billion-dollar business or a $10-billion business doesn't feel like a real thing to me. It feels like a concept.\n\nMeanwhile, the dry cleaner down the street—I can drop off my shirt, get it cleaned, and pick it up from the person who owns the place. This is her living. This is what they do. There's something that I connect with, something that's real, that I feel like I can hold in my head and understand.\n\nI keep coming back to this—not keep, but I've already come back to it once in this interview: this idea of surface area and a business as an object. I want to be able to see the whole thing and understand the whole thing. A massive entity with tens of thousands of people and billions of dollars and whatever—I don't understand it, and that's maybe my own shortcoming or whatever. I don't really care. Again, I don't need to understand that. It's not my thing.\n\nBut I just prefer smaller businesses. Our customers are small-business owners, and I don't care about enterprise customers. I don't want them. I like small and medium-sized businesses. They're more like me. I understand who they are. I understand what they do. I like that kind of stuff.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSo, a business can't be beyond a single person's comprehension—you can understand it. A dry cleaner is very comprehensible. You gave this great story—I don't remember if it was in one of your books or not. There's a love of craftsmanship that I get from your writing. There's a pizza place where he will only sell—\n\nJason Fried\n\nOh, yeah. Yeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIs it the fresh dough? And he has no—\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt's a sandwich place.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOkay, sandwich. Can you tell this?\n\nJason Fried\n\nWhen they ran out of bread—I don't know if they're in business anymore.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThey're in Chicago.\n\nJason Fried\n\nOkay.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nVinnie's, I think, was the name of the place on Chicago Avenue, if anyone wants to look it up. Sandwich place, subs, Italian joint, whatever.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYou go in, and they're open as long as they have bread. They just sell out, and they're closed. That's it. They're done. They could sell more.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThey're not making—\n\nJason Fried\n\nThey could sell more.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThat's anti-optimization. Yeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. They could, I'm sure, get more sacks of bread from the bakery. It actually comes in a sack, like the big baguettes or whatever. They just run out, they're done, and maybe usually it's 2:30 or something. There are no hours on the door. They close when they close, when they're done for the day.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nBut he does that because—\n\nJason Fried\n\nThey could sell more, but then where do you stop? But this is the thing: Where does this end? We could stay open till 6:30. I mean, 7:00, probably. We could do 7:30. Someone's still at the door, so we could do 8:00.\n\nYou can see how this doesn't end and how a business like that could consume everything. Then you begin to not like it, because there's nothing else in your life but that. Then you're so attached to it. You can see how this could expand to that degree.\n\nI just think this idea that you're done at 2:30 is healthy. I think the business lasts longer because of that. I think you probably don't get bored with a business like that. There's something about that versus this idea of a business that you have to maximize and fully fill all your time, all your energy, everything.\n\nI can understand the appeal there for a while, but I also think there's something very simply beautiful about enough. Now, I don't own that business. They might wish they had a lot more revenue and sold a lot more sandwiches. So I also want to recognize the fact that I'm looking at this from the outside. I'm an objective observer.\n\nBut I'm just observing what I think is a beautiful thing: a business that's been around for a long time, is family-owned, does enough business for them to support themselves and their employees, and makes great food for their customers. Isn't that what this is about?\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAre you proud of how long you've been able to stay in business?\n\nJason Fried\n\nI'm not proud of it. I didn't mean that in a negative way. It's like pride is not a—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIs it important?\n\nJason Fried\n\nI feel fortunate.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIs the time important to you? If I could tell you, \"Okay, you can make the exact same amount of money that you made in 27 years, but you made it in 15, and you're done,\" you'd take the 27?\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nI would take the 27. The money is a side effect of all of this.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI know.\n\nJason Fried\n\nPatrick O'Shaughnessy, whom you interviewed, right? I love what he said about work. I think it's something like, “I work so I can work more,” or something like that.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n“The reward for good work is more work.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nThere you go.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIt's to keep going.\n\nJason Fried\n\nGreat way to phrase it. That's why 27 years is more interesting than 15. I like this stuff. The beauty of this, for me, is that somehow we've managed to build this system, this company, these products that sustain over a long period of time, that allow us to enjoy our craft and our work over a long period of time, and we are in control of that as much as we can be.\n\nThe market can change. Anything can happen at any time. But I can control my costs, I can control my quality, I can control my messaging as best I can, and we can make the best thing we can over time and keep making that thing. That's what I want to do. This is my whole point. I don't want to trade my position with anybody for anything.\n\nI can love what other people do, too. I do. There are great products all over the place, and I'm like, “Wow, that's an amazing thing that someone made.” For example, one of my favorite products is the Concept2 Rower. Are you familiar with this?\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYes.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI don't know anything about the company, but I can reverse-engineer it. I bet it's a badass, killer company, too, because that's how I look at things, by the way. I look at the products, not the companies. I look at the products and go, “Oh, that's a great product. I bet that's a great company.” Or, “This product is—nah, I don't like this product. I bet the company's kind of…”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI do this for people. If you can make a great product, you're probably an interesting person to talk to.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, I could see that reverse-engineering thing as well. Again, look to the inside to figure out what forms on the outside.\n\nConcept2 is probably one of my favorite products of all time, the Concept2 Rower. Their bikes are good, too, and they make a SkiErg, too. But the rower is my favorite machine, and I love it because it is so well-built. First of all, it's under $1,000, and I think it's been under $1,000 forever. It's been around forever. There have been different variations of it, but they're always improving on a theme. It's roughly the same thing every iteration, but slightly better.\n\nIt comes in a big box and is very easy to assemble. It's a big machine, but it's very easy to assemble. The display is a black-and-white LCD, not even LED, with 5 rubberized buttons, and then I think there are 2 other ones. It runs on C or D batteries. No electricity, no plugging in, no recharging. “Oh, shit, it's done. Get some new batteries.” It just works.\n\nThere are no touchscreens. The buttons you press, the thing is reliable. It always works. It's incredibly durable. It does exactly what it's supposed to do with nothing else. I look at that, and I go, “That is a perfect product.” It's one of the few perfect products I've ever seen. A paper clip and a Concept2 Rower—it's hard to improve on both of those things.\n\nI have deep admiration for that kind of thing. I still wouldn't want to trade my company for theirs, because I don't know anything about what they do. I know what I do. But I can still respect and admire all sorts of things and all sorts of companies, and I still wouldn't want to be them.\n\nI like what we do, and I like that I can do it for a long period of time. Hopefully, I'll do it for as long as I feel like I want to do it, and then, at some point, we'll decide that we're not going to do it anymore. I don't know when that'll be.\n\nI'm always a year-to-year guy. I'm a day-to-day guy when it comes to planning. Like I talked about a little bit earlier, I don't believe in long-term planning. I believe in being around for the long term, but I think the best way to do that is day by day, not quarter by quarter or year by year. Just figure out today, and figure out tomorrow, and figure out tomorrow.\n\nI've always been mystified by people who think they can figure out the next 3 years today, but they're afraid of figuring out tomorrow, tomorrow. “I need to plan the next 3 years, so I can do that. I can plan 900 or 1,000 days in advance, but tomorrow, I can't figure things out if I don't have a plan.” You can figure things out tomorrow if you can figure things out for the next 1,000 days.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nExplain how you plan day by day.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThere's no plan. We have a direction.\n\nSo, the way I think about this—and this is, again, another weird metaphor, perhaps—I think of our business, and maybe me, as a squirrel.\n\nYou watch a squirrel run across a field. What does it do? It knows roughly where it wants to go, and it runs, and it scurries, and it stops and looks around. Then it scurries some more, stops and looks around, and scurries some more.\n\nIt doesn't need to get exactly where it wants to go. It knows roughly where it wants to go, and it clearly doesn't know exactly how it's going to get there, but it knows where it's headed, and then it course-corrects. That's how I do it.\n\nAt our company, we typically think about 6 weeks in advance, and that's about it. There are occasional projects—maybe a few over the 27 years that we've been doing this—that we needed to think further ahead about. We just recently left the cloud, left AWS, and we're running our own stuff in data centers now. That was a much bigger project.\n\nBut 99% of the projects at our company take 6 weeks or less, and most of them take much less than that. Six weeks is the most we're willing to think ahead. That 6-week period is like where the squirrel is headed, so it's not super clearly defined. It's generally defined, and then we figure it out as we go. We figure it out on a day-to-day basis. The teams figure it out as they go.\n\nI kind of set—or David or someone sets—the target generally. Not financial targets, but generally, we're headed in this direction with this idea. Figure out how to get there on your own. We'll check in when we need to. If you want some help, ask; we're happy to come in. I'll review stuff as we go, but it's a bunch of course-correction to get us there.\n\nI find that this is the most honest, real way to get somewhere good, because in general, you know more about things the closer they are to you. I don't know what's going to happen 5 Mondays from now, but today's Thursday, so let's just take Friday. I probably have a better idea of what might happen tomorrow than I do 5 Fridays from now. I'll worry about those when I get there.\n\nLet me worry about tomorrow. Let me nail tomorrow. Let me get tomorrow right. Let's do the right stuff tomorrow. Let's make the right decisions tomorrow, and then we'll make some more on Monday, and make some more on Tuesday, and make some more on Wednesday. Just make small decisions all the time, and don't put yourself in a place where you're making huge decisions you're afraid of. You can sort of get wherever you want to go for 27-plus years.\n\nThere's a question that I keep getting asked by different people, so it must be a popular question, and I'm always perplexed by it. They ask, “You seem to have something good going right now. What does success look like 5 years from now?”\n\nYou hate the question I'm going to ask you.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI'm going to ask what your answer is, and I'm going to tell you what my answer to that question is.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n“I don't know” is the answer. I don't care.\n\nJason Fried\n\nSo what? I don't even know 5 years from now. What's the difference? It's an interesting question because it's a directional question, but I don't care. I don't have an answer. My answer is boring: “Just more of this.”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah, sure. Well, exactly.\n\nJason Fried\n\nAnd that's essentially what it is. So, here's the thing about those questions: people answer them today for who they think they're going to be then. You don't know who you're going to be then, so it's kind of a silly thing to answer or even to ponder. Yeah, I'm with you.\n\nThis is the answer, basically.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI've read all your books. I've listened to almost all your episodes. We've shared a bunch of meals together.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd I never even knew that you did the day thing, too, because I try to make a good 24 hours, and then I say, “I like this day, so I'll do it again tomorrow.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI had this line that I just said by accident. I was like, “All a great life is is just a string of great days.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nThank you. Of course.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSo, all I need to focus on is: let me make a great day. I told you last night, the way I think about it—which is very similar to what you're doing, or what I'm doing—is I'm just laying bricks.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThat's it.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nToday, I'm making a podcast, and tomorrow I'll make another one, and a few days later I'll make another one. Then I'll let the score take care of itself because I just like doing this, and I do it the way I want to do it.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI want to make a great product.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nMy answer to that question is just, “This.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nThis.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nFive years from now, I just want to be making more podcasts. I know I'm going to be reading books forever.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThat's the only unbroken habit I've ever had in my entire life, for over 30-something years. I can't stop reading, so I'm going to be reading books.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThat's what my other podcast is about.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI like talking to smart, interesting people who do great shit. I don't think I'm ever going to stop doing that, so that's what this is.\n\nAll of the founders and extreme winners that I have studied have this one trait in common, they have excessively high energy levels. If you're going to be the best at what you do, you need to maximize your energy and output, and that's why I've partnered with Function. I signed up for Function long before they were a sponsor of this podcast, and when you sign up, they ask you what your health goals are, and my response in all capital letters was MAXIMUM ENERGY. Function provides access to comprehensive blood tests and other lab testing to help you improve your health so you can perform at your highest level. Function has made it easy for me to monitor and improve my internal health markers so that I feel at my absolute strongest. As a member of Function, you get access to test over 100 plus biomarkers, from hormones to toxins to markers for heart health, inflammation, and stress. Function gives you a straightforward analysis of all your results, along with advice from expert doctors on how to improve things like your testosterone, your stress hormones, how to reduce toxins in your body, and much more. The platform is absolutely beautiful and provides an easy-to-understand picture of your overall health. Once you try Function, you will immediately understand why it's the fastest-growing health platform in the country. You can now join Function for just $365 a year. That's a dollar a day. Learn more and join by visiting functionhealth.com/senra, and use code SENRA25 for a $25 credit towards your membership. That is functionhealth.com/senra.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, great answer. If one day you decide you don't want to do this anymore, then you just change.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThat's where you and I start to separate a little bit.\n\nJason Fried\n\nAnd I’ll jump off a cliff. I’d be very disappointed.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nMaybe that would be the thing you start doing: jumping off cliffs. I don’t know. Well, with parachutes, hopefully.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI’d be very disappointed in myself.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou might find another interest in your life. Something Jeff Bezos told me, which I’ve always kept close at heart because I’ve examined the things I’ve come to enjoy doing: He says, “You don’t find your passions; they find you.” And I’ve always believed that. I didn’t know that, but I’ve always believed it. I didn’t really know that I believed it.\n\nWhen he said it, I’m like, “Yeah, I have always felt that way,” because I’m into things now that I wasn’t into 10 years ago, that I didn’t know about 10 years ago. I’m hopeful for you that there are other things, too, even though you can do this, too. But who knows?\n\nI think there’s another beauty in just being empty and open to the world and how it presents itself to you. You might find that you love this, and you love something else. There might come a time when you don’t like this anymore, and that’s okay. It’s okay. I can tell you don’t believe me.\n\nJason Fried\n\nNo, it’s not that I don’t believe you.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nMaybe we do this until 80, right?\n\nJason Fried\n\nHopefully.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd I hope you do, too, because you’re damn good at it, right? But who knows? And it’s okay. It’s okay.\n\nThis is why the whole idea of a 5-year plan is kind of a ridiculous thing. How about just getting tomorrow right? Get tomorrow right. If tomorrow wasn’t right, this is the thing: I think this gets back to, in some ways, tying it back to the thinness. You want to find tiny units, small units. A day is a good small unit, right? A simple decision is a good small unit.\n\nThe good thing about that is, if you screw up, it’s not a big deal. If tomorrow sucks because of whatever happened, okay, it’s behind you in 24 hours. It’s over. That’s versus big, huge decisions where you take 8 months to think about it, pull in all these people, set up all these contingencies, and make the big decision. Then it goes sour, it goes south, whatever. Maybe it works out, but maybe it doesn’t.\n\nIt’s so hard to make those calls. It’s so hard to deal with the ramifications of those things if they don’t work out. Make things small, tiny little units that you can throw away. It doesn’t matter. What you basically want, then, is enough good things, enough good units in a year, right? Not 1 great year or 1 great plan, but enough good little things, because you know you’re going to miss a few things. Who cares? Throw them away. It doesn’t matter.\n\nSmall units, bricks—build that way. I think that you become more antifragile in that way. When they’re just little things, they can’t throw you off too much if you get something wrong and it’s small.\n\nNow, someone could say, “Well, you’re going to miss big opportunities,” and yes, maybe so. So what? If I can stay alive doing the thing I’m doing and running the business I want to run, I don’t need the other big opportunities. Stop worrying about all the other things you can maybe do, and just focus on the thing that you’re doing. Make that work over and over and over and over, as long as you want to do it.\n\nBrad Jacobs has started eight separate billion-dollar companies. He said, \"I've come to know a lot of extremely successful people in my life, and they all have one thing in common: they think differently than most people. All of them, to a person, have rearranged their brains to prevail at achieving big goals in turbulent environments where conventional thinking often fails.\" What Brad noticed is that great business leaders are pattern spotters, but you can't spot patterns if you can't see all of your data. Most businesses only use 20% of their data. Why? Because 80% of customer intelligence is invisible. It's hidden in emails, transcripts, and conversations. That's where HubSpot comes in. With HubSpot, all of your data comes together so you can see the patterns that matter. This is important because when you know more, you grow more, and that is a pattern that never fails. Visit hubspot.com today. That is hubspot.com.\n\nDo you feel you have a narrow aperture with the world?\n\nJason Fried\n\nNo, I don’t.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOkay.\n\nJason Fried\n\nWell, actually, what do you mean by that, first of all? Because I’m guessing.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nLike what you just said. Why are you worried about all these other opportunities out there in the world? You just seem to be focused on, “I’m building the business the way I want. It’s a perfect business for myself.” You’re kind of oblivious—I don’t mean this in a disrespectful way by any means. You don’t really care what other people in your industry are doing. You have a narrow focus on—\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, I don’t know if it’s narrow or wide. It just is. I’m doing what I’m doing, and it doesn’t matter what they’re doing.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nHow often are you paying attention to how other people are making their products?\n\nJason Fried\n\nVery rarely. I don’t actually want to pay attention to it.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhy?\n\nJason Fried\n\nI think what ends up happening is—and in my world, you see it everywhere—everyone follows everybody else. When you’re paying so much attention to what everyone else is doing, that’s the way you think it has to be done or can be done. You’re not open to alternatives because you don’t see them anywhere.\n\nPeople then build out of fear: “Gosh, they’re doing this. They’re launching this. I have to meet them. There has to be parity between my product and theirs.” Then you end up following everybody. I don’t like that.\n\nIf I’m going to take inspiration from anything product-wise, it’s the Concept2 rower. It’s not another piece of software. I’m not inspired by other software. I like buildings, furniture, Concept2, and watches. I like other things outside of my world that I can admire and understand, and get fired up about.\n\nI don’t know if those things come back. I don’t think they need to come back. Everyone’s always like, “How does that come back and help you build your business?” I don’t know. I don’t care. Why does it have to? Why does everything have to come back to business?\n\nWhy does everything have to influence your decisions? These are all things that just happen. They exist in your world, they happen to you, and they form you, and you’re not even aware of most of it.\n\nI think if you admire a variety of different things and pay attention to different things, and enjoy a walk in the woods. A few days ago, it was 4:45. Here in California, the light is just beautiful at the end of the day. I was sitting outside, looking at the way the sun was raking over the hills. I’d rather look at that than this piece of software. I’m learning more from that.\n\nI’m getting more from that than I am from a competitor’s product. I don’t want to look at that. I want to look at the sun, I want to look at the ocean, I want to go for a walk, I want to look at nature, and I want to look at great furniture. I want to be in great architecture. That fills me up in a way.\n\nI’m getting enough of the software world by being in it. I don’t want to soak in it. I want to soak outside of it, and then my only soaking in the software world is my own stuff. That’s enough. It’s enough for me to focus on.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nTell me about your idea of Galápagos Island product design.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThere’s something really cool about islands that have evolved on their own. I don’t know—I’ve never been to the Galápagos. My wife has. She asked me if I wanted to go. I didn’t want to go because it’s too far. But I should have gone, probably. Actually, I didn’t want to go, frankly, because part of that was that it was too far.\n\nI also felt like, “Can we let it be?” She loved it, and I’m so glad she went. The pictures are incredible, and it seems like an amazing experience. But there’s something very cool about things that have just evolved on their own, that are not influenced by other things.\n\nI try to think of us as the Galápagos. I don’t think of us this way, really, but conceptually, I don’t use the phrase “the Galápagos Island of the software industry.” I don’t use that. But I do think of us as an insular group focused on solving a problem our own way, without paying too much attention to what everyone else is doing.\n\nI’m aware of it because I live in it, but I’m not seeking out ideas from other companies in our field. I think that’s actually a slippery slope. It is, because we see so much copying in our industry. Someone has a successful product, and then all future products for the next 3 years look just like theirs. That says to me that there’s danger here. Don’t fall into that trap.\n\nOur stuff looks different from everybody else’s stuff. Our stuff works differently from everybody else’s stuff. Nothing works like Basecamp, HEY, or Fizzy. It’s all different. Some people hate the way our stuff looks and works. Fine. I don’t care.\n\nWe have enough people who love what we do, and it’s an expanding pie of people who are into what we do. We love what we do, and again, that’s enough for us.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nEven your landing pages look different. They’re essentially a letter from you describing what the product is and why it exists.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. I always try to build things that I would want to see. I build the company I want to work at. I hire the people I want to work with. I try to write. I do all of our writing.\n\nI don’t do the design. I work with our designer to do a lot of that, but he’s the visual person there. I do all the writing, and I want every word to land with meaning.\n\nThis is, again, about thin versus thick. I don’t like thick stuff. With thin, how can I just get to the right point but not be sterile? It’s a problem sometimes with getting to the point: You can be sterile.\n\nThere should be a little bit of bounce, a little bit of rhythm in the writing. It should feel nice. You should be carried through it. There should be some momentum in there, and I just love doing it.\n\nThat's my favorite thing to do at the company: write. But we just do stuff that we like. I like that style. If you look at my product demos, I always do the product demo for the launch. They're long, and they're unedited, and I screw up a bunch. I don't care.\n\nIf I were sitting with you, what I would want to get to with this kind of stuff is this: if I'm showing you our product, and you're behind me or sitting next to me, and we're looking at this thing together, if I screw up 2 minutes in, I'm not going to say, \"Let's start over.\" I'm just going to keep going. That's how I want these to feel.\n\nI want to connect with people in a real way. This is a real person showing off a real product. This is a real person writing a real thing. My name's on it, my signature's on it, my email is on it. We are who we are. We represent ourselves as we are. We are not a corporate entity hiding behind a structure. We're not a CEO or a CTO hiding from our customers.\n\nWe don't have a board. We don't have any of these things. It's just us running the show, and the show is open for anyone to see. We open-source most of our work. We're very open about sharing everything we know as best we possibly can. I just feel like there's no reason not to. I just want to be direct and clear with people.\n\nHopefully, they like that, and some people don't. Some people are like, \"Oh, you guys are too small. I can't trust you.\" I'm not out to convince anybody of anything. That's the other thing: I don't want to convince anyone. I don't like marketing language. I don't like tricks.\n\nHere we are. Here's what we do. Here's what our product does. That's the best we can do, and that's the best I want to do. I think it's the honest way to be. Take it or leave it. Some people don't like it. That's totally fine. I get it.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI love the idea of doubling down on authenticity and leaving the mistakes in. I remember reading one of your essays a long time ago. I can't remember the culture, but they would do—\n\nJason Fried\n\nNavajo rugs.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOkay.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI'll tell you the story.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI was in Wisconsin, in this little town called Mineral Point, Wisconsin, about 50 miles west of Madison, and I was wandering through a gallery. It was this weird building, and it looked like a junkyard inside. You peered in and thought, \"What is going on in here?\" I saw some old man in the back and thought, \"There's going to be something cool here.\"\n\nI knocked on his door and walked in. There were some rugs hanging, but there was also junk everywhere. Anyway, he comes out, and you're like, \"Okay, this guy's a character.\" I love characters. I love old people. There's something going on there, right? I'm thinking, \"Who is this guy?\"\n\nHe's a Navajo rug collector. He's dead now, so you can't go there today, is what I'm saying, but he collected Navajo rugs. I find them very beautiful. They're very simply patterned, the colors are very vibrant, and they're very interesting. I don't know what it was—they spoke to me.\n\nI don't want to analyze why, either, because I find that's a great way to ruin any experience: trying to figure out why. It either does or it doesn't. It does. I love these things for whatever reason.\n\nSo, I go in and talk to the guy, and I notice that the rugs have a lot of errors on them. There were geometric shapes—stripes, squares, triangles, all sorts of different shapes—and a lot of them weren't quite right. They're trying to make a perfect triangle, but it's not quite right. Or there's a stitch that's off—very clearly off. I'm thinking, \"They could have just taken that out and redone it.\"\n\nAgain, I don't know if this is true, but this is what he told me. He said that the Navajo don't see those as mistakes. They're just a moment in time. He relayed it this way: \"If you're walking on a path, if you're climbing a mountain or something, and you're going on a path, and you trip or stumble or whatever, you don't start back.\" You can't take that stumble back. It just happened.\n\nThe Navajo leave these in their rugs because they just happened, and this is a record of what happened. I love that. I just thought it was so lovely. I've tried to do that with the things that I do.\n\nI don't want to leave typos and stuff. That's not quite the same thing. But if I make a mistake on a video or something, whatever. That's what you would do in the real world, so I'm comfortable with that.\n\nI've always found that to be a very beautiful thing. These are not mistakes. Mistakes are a concept we put on ourselves when we do something that wasn't what we intended. Why does that have so much weight? Maybe what we intended was wrong, too. I don't know.\n\nAre these rugs worse because there's a stitch off? No, they're not worse. They're better. That's what I'm striving for with this stuff: not to take things so damn seriously, and not to build a company that's afraid of itself, afraid to do anything wrong, and afraid to have an opinion.\n\nAll these companies—not all; that's a very broad statement—companies are afraid. The PR people have to talk to lawyers before they publish anything. Everyone's afraid of everything: of saying something wrong, doing something wrong, being wrong in some way. That is not endearing.\n\nI think people want to do business with people. They have to do business with companies because companies provide a lot of products, but I think they really want to do business with people.\n\nMaybe this is why I like the dry cleaner. Maybe this is why I like the grocery store. Maybe this is why I like running my business my way. I feel like people are dealing with people. We don't have a big corporate structure. We're just 62 people currently doing the things that we're doing. We're all accessible, all reachable. No one's hiding from anybody.\n\nThis is what we do. There's, again, a thinness, a directness to that which has an aesthetic value to me that I can't quite explain. It's like the quality without a name.\n\nI think it might have been Christopher Alexander or something, who was an architect, who talked about this. I might be totally off on this, but conceptually, the idea was that you can go see buildings in native villages, and there's no architect who made any of this stuff. They didn't have any architects. They had people making places for them to live, work, and worship.\n\nThere's a certain quality to that which is not textbook high quality, but it's beyond high quality because it's a perfect fit for what they wanted for themselves. That's the kind of stuff I like to build.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIt's kind of how you're designing your company.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. It's a perfect fit for us, for what we want and what we need. Again, getting back to the original thing, how many other people are there out there like us? Enough. That's the business model.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThis is exactly how I started doing the podcast. I think I'm drawn to that, too. I think in people, not companies, right?\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd this is why I was drawn to podcasts to begin with. Some of these podcasters I was a fan of before I had a podcast, I've heard them speak for hundreds of hours. You can't hide who you are at that point.\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou're going to hear the good, you're going to hear the mistakes, and you used the word endearing. That's exactly how I feel—\n\nJason Fried\n\nMm-hmm.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n—about some of the people that I admire.\n\nJason Fried\n\nMm.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThere's something about them that is endearing.\n\nJason Fried\n\nMm.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIn fact, a friend of mine just texted me this morning. My friend Lulu was listening to one of my old podcasts on Napoleon's maxims on Founders—Episode 337, if I remember correctly.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nShe thought it was hilarious that I didn't edit out the fact that I was mispronouncing all these French names. I'm just like, I don't know. I'm reading from the book. I'm like, \"I don't know what this is.\"\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n\"I don't speak French.\"\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n\"So I'm just going to do this phonetically.\"\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, just do it your way.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nBut it was endearing to her—\n\nJason Fried\n\nOf course.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n—that I didn't act like I speak French or anything. I was like, \"I read books—\"\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n—and I'm just guessing at how this is pronounced.\"\n\nJason Fried\n\nYou're not putting on airs. I admire anyone who is truly themselves, and that's what that was for you. You're like, \"I could have probably faked the accent.\"\n\nYou watch TV news, and the guy uses a Hispanic accent for some Spanish word, and you're like, \"That's weird.\"\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI know.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYou're trying too hard. If you don't speak Spanish, you don't need to fake the accent to try to speak Spanish. But you see it all the time. I don't know how to pronounce French words, either. I'm not even going to try. I'll just say what I say and read it phonetically, and you could even say, \"I don't know how to say this.\"\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI do say it. Exactly.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. \"I don't know what this is. You're going to laugh at me, but this is what it is.\" Then you move on, and no one gives a damn because you're you, and that's not the point of the story.\n\nThe point of the story is not perfect French pronunciation, with 7 words out of 5,000. It's: What is the story? Who's telling it? Why are you telling it? That's what matters.\n\nFiguring out the stuff that actually matters is what's important about that process. Running a business and making decisions about a product is the same: What matters? What doesn't matter? That's fun.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nGoing back to you writing these letters for the landing page, do you do it like Bezos, where he writes it before the product is created? Or do you do it after the fact?\n\nJason Fried\n\nIn the middle, usually. With HEY, I wrote one for HEY, which is our email service, and before we launched—before the product was even anywhere near done—I wrote the letter.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI need to interrupt you.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI was a fan of your writing. The first time we met, I showed you the Amazon. I said, “Listen, I have receipts here. I’ve been reading—”\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, yes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nyour stuff for 13, 15 years.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI bought HEY just because I wanted to give you money. I’d buy your books, but I didn’t have a team, and Basecamp’s project management—\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nand I’m working by myself.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSo I couldn’t ever give you money, and then you built up so much goodwill by teaching me so much through your writing that I thought, “Oh, I use email. I’m going to buy that product.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nI appreciate that.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSo I am a proud subscriber of HEY. I’ve got to pay you back somehow.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThank you.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIt happens so much.\n\nJason Fried\n\nAnd it’s a cool way to purchase something.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThis goes back to how we identify with people, not companies.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes, and it’s a cool way to purchase something.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nSometimes, the use is the support, not the actual use of the product. But anyway, during the development of HEY, we launched this pre-launch page months before HEY was done. I wrote this letter about why email is a beautiful thing.\n\nFor the longest time, people have hated email because they despise it. Email has gone off the rails, and we can bring it back on. Do you remember when you used to get an email from someone you loved, or your grandparent, or an old friend? It’s a wonderful thing to get an email from someone who you care about.\n\nThe problem is that most emails now are spam, sales and garbage, meetings and shit. We can get into that, but the point, to your question, was I wrote that in the middle. I didn’t know what the product was going to be yet. We were going one day at a time. I didn’t know what it was going to be.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWas that the why behind the product? How would you describe it?\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt was the love behind the product.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nLove?\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSay more about that.\n\nIt’s not silly.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI know, but it’s a different version of love.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nNo, I love podcasts, so I know exactly what you’re talking about.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. Yeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nNo, I love them.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd when I make one—\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nand listen to it before anybody else does—\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nand I’m like, “I’m happy with this”—\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nthat is love.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes, that.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou’re not silly. It’s not silly to me.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, I know, I know. So there’s a certain warmth and tone that comes through when you make something you’re really proud of in that way. We got proud about running the business for 27 years. I’m really proud of the products we make.\n\nThe business, again, is like the envelope. I’m not proud of the envelope. I’m proud of the things that sustain the business, which are the products. I love getting them as right as I possibly can.\n\nThere is a warmth that comes to you when you’re really proud to share something that you’re done with, that you’ve finished, that you want to put out there in the world. It could be a letter, it could be a line, it could be the right word in the right place, it could be an entire product, and it can also be a company, in a sense. But there is love reserved for that, for sure.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSo this is a love for the decentralized... I remember reading this. You were talking about how the actual creation of email is a miracle; we’ve just fucked that up.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. It’s amazing that anybody in the world can get in touch with anybody else. There are no platforms. Everything else is a platform. You want to write someone on WhatsApp? They have to have WhatsApp. Signal? They have to have Signal. Whatever, right?\n\nEmail is a beautiful thing. It’s as beautiful as the web. The web is beautiful because anyone in the world with a web browser made by any company can use HTTP and connect to some other website. The same thing is true with basic email. These are the wonders of the world.\n\nHow did they become so despised? I blame Apple, I blame Google, I blame Yahoo, I blame Microsoft for making shitty email products that they just don’t care about. Now, they’ve started to care more about them. But they didn’t care about them for a long time, and everybody knows that nobody cared, and so we care.\n\nI live in email sometimes. We don’t use email inside our company; we use Basecamp. But for the outside world, we use email. I want to use tools I love. I want to use tools that matter to me.\n\nIf I’m going to spend most of my day in Basecamp, I want to make Basecamp. If I’m going to spend the other part of my day in HEY, in email, I want to make an email tool that I’m proud of, that I want to use, that I have a certain love for, and that’s what that is.\n\nThat letter was a love letter. In fact, it ended, if I remember correctly, like this: “This is a love letter. HEY is our love letter to email.” I meant it.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah, it’s a great thing. It’s an amazing thing. You just used the word “tool” a few times.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nDo you identify with Tobi Lütke? He’s like, “I’m just a...”\n\nJason Fried\n\nToolmaker.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah. “I’m a toolmaker.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nThat’s all I make, too. I make tools.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThat’s how you think about it?\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. When people ask, “What do you do?” I say, “I’m in the software business,” so they understand what I do, but I don’t like that term. I also don’t like, “I’m in the tech industry.” I’m not a tech person. I don’t like that.\n\nI make tools. They just happen to be made of software. That’s all I know how to do. I don’t know how to make things out of wood, but I know how to make things out of software, code, design and conceptual ideas.\n\nSo, yeah, I make tools. We make tools. We make levers. It’s just a lever that lets you do more with it than you could without it. That’s all it is.\n\nYou can move more things. You can organize more people. You can come up with better ideas. You can see those ideas through. You can make progress with the products that we make. That’s what a tool is for: to make progress.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI’m fascinated by how much of your time is spent outside the business, and how much of the inspiration you derive in life seems to be from physical things. You just named a bunch. You have a love of architecture; we just talked about watches, cars and the Concept2 rower.\n\nWhen you said, “You could change your mind, David. Maybe you’re not podcasting in the future,” what I know for sure is, if I ever do anything else, it’s going to be physical.\n\nThe same phenomenon is that I barely look at numbers. I know you barely look at numbers, but it’s just numbers on a screen. Those numbers happen to be big, but you don’t understand that. You just don’t feel it.\n\nI remember Mark Leonard of Constellation Software did this podcast. He talked about how one of the most fulfilling jobs he ever had was not starting and compounding whatever it was, from 50 million to 80 billion, or whatever he’s done with pure software. He was building stone walls.\n\nJason Fried\n\nMm.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nEven to this day, he said he’d go—I think he was a kid or a young man, maybe he was in his 20s or 30s back then—but you can go to where the stone wall that he worked on 30 years ago is, and he’s pointing at it, saying, “I did that.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nThat’s badass.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n“I made that.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhy do you draw so much inspiration from physical things?\n\nJason Fried\n\nI’ll take some guesses, because I don’t know. It’s like I don’t know why I like certain flavors. I just do, right? You can’t really explain these things, but if I had to guess, it comes back to the fact that there’s something real about them.\n\nI like being able to hold things and touch things. I like texture. Something you’ll see in a lot of our software products is texture, which is not real; it’s simulated. A lot of software these days is very flat. I like gradients, colors, lines and some texture.\n\nI find it very fulfilling and real to rub your finger over something and feel it. I like patina. I like age on things. Software doesn’t age. I mean, it does age. It can look old or whatever, but software looks the same over time.\n\nA great building, a great brick—to get back to bricks—bricks are beautiful because they look even better as they get older. They collect age on them. They get stronger. They build into other things.\n\nThere’s something about the physical world to me that is just... We’re from it, okay? We are it. We are part of it. There’s something so fundamental about it that I try never to get too far away from it.\n\nI would much rather lie on the ground than fly in the air. I just want to be closer to things that are real. Now, flying in the air is real, too, of course, but I’d rather walk somewhere. I’d rather drive. I’d like to be closer to the ground.\n\nI’ve begun to collect rocks that I think are cool-looking.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOh, now you can move to Malibu.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAre these rocks crystals?\n\nJason Fried\n\nThey’re not crystals. I was going to save that in case you asked me. They’re not crystals. I’ll just find something at the beach, or I’ll find something interesting with a cool pattern in it, and I just like it.\n\nI love nature. I love all the textures, patterns and colors. For example, when you’re coming up as a designer, in the early days when I was designing identities, like logos and stuff, you’d go through these logo books or corporate identity books.\n\nI think there was an organization called—I want to call it Brand, but maybe I’m wrong. Print, actually. It was this magazine that had all these pictures of business cards and stuff, and every designer I know would look through other business cards for inspiration—for color patterns, palettes and layouts—and I’d think, “Go outside.”\n\nThe best designs ever are right there. That leaf is the best it’s ever been. Obviously, it has survived and evolved. This is a great thing. If you want to find great colors, look at a bird. Don’t look at a book. Look at a leaf, right? Look at the ocean.\n\nGo to a tide pool and just look at the colors in that tide pool. Look at the way the light reflects. That's the real stuff, and I have goosebumps.\n\nFor me, whenever I talk about this, it's just fundamentally real to me. I love it, and I love the screen, too. I love making software, too, but probably because I'm in that a lot, I really like not being in that, too.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI don't think you love the screen. You said if you sell your business—\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight now, I do.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAll right, we never answered that.\n\nJason Fried\n\nOkay, let's get into this.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou said if you sold your business—\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou're never going to use a computer again.\n\nJason Fried\n\nWell, I said I would never start another business again. What I would like to do is shut my laptop. I don't need a screen to survive my days. I'd like to close my laptop for a year and just not use it.\n\nI'll use my phone because I get in touch with people, right? But I don't want to “compute.” I don't need to compute. Let me just close it and walk away. The computers are probably the most amazing tool humans ever made.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI don't despise or hate them, but I could take some time away from them. I think time away from nature would bug me a whole lot more. If I couldn't go outside for a year, it would bug me way more.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOh, you'd go insane.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI'd jump off the cliff.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI think people have gone insane.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThey have, for sure. Exactly. I want to be out. I want to be out there. I think it's just a wonderful thing.\n\nThe screen is wonderful. Software is wonderful. Computers are incredible things, and right now is an amazing time for computers—one of the most amazing times since the web back in the late '90s, or the mid-'90s, really. It's cool to live through both of these moments.\n\nBut I'd still rather play with some bricks and work on a stone wall, even though I don't know how. That wouldn't pay my bills either, so I have to be practical. I've built a great software company, and I like this stuff a lot. I don't know how to build stone walls, but I wouldn't mind playing with them.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThe bills are taken care of.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThe bills are, but I still—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI don't think you have to worry about that anymore.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI don't, and I don't do it for that reason.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI know you don't.\n\nJason Fried\n\nMy point is, had I built stone walls for 27 years, I'm not sure where I would be, you know?\n\nDavid Senra\n\nNo, the bills would be piling up.\n\nJason Fried\n\nMy hands would be very sore, for sure.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThe bills would be piling up.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOne of the people I most hope to get on the show and talk to is Christopher Nolan.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. Have you ever looked into his personal philosophy at all?\n\nDavid Senra\n\nNo, I just like his movies.\n\nJason Fried\n\nOkay.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThere's something that you, me, and him, I think, have in common. He desires to live in an analog world. I'm almost positive that's a direct quote. It might be me summarizing something I read in his biography.\n\nIf you think about the juxtaposition between you making software but wanting to be on a hike outside—you want to look at the ocean, right? He makes some of the most technologically advanced films that have ever been created, and yet he doesn't have a cellphone. You can't get in touch with him.\n\nJason Fried\n\nLove that.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou have to email his assistant, and his assistant has to track him down.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThat's amazing. Yeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nHe will purposely put himself into a difficult position. He'll drop into a new city. He doesn't have a smartphone, so he has no GPS.\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nHe's got to go up to somebody and say, “How do I get to the deli?” or whatever.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIf he wants you to be in his movie and says, “Email me the script,” he's not emailing you the script.\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nHe is printing it out physically—\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n—and flying to you.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSo I'm Christopher Nolan, and I want you, Jason, in my movie. I'm showing up at your door.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n“Here's the script,” and you're like, “Great, I'll read it.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd I'm sitting there until you're done reading it.\n\nJason Fried\n\nWaiting.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd then when you're done—\n\nJason Fried\n\nTake it back.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI'm taking it back.\n\nJason Fried\n\nAmazing. Amazing. That's cool.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI feel that exact same way. Your entire product is delivered digitally.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nMine is, too.\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nBut I like to read physical books. I like to be in person. I will not do a remote podcast.\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nNow I've gotten to the point where I won't even go on other people's podcasts remotely. I'm like, “No, let's go meet and hang out.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt's cool.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI want to talk on the phone if I can't be with you in person. I don't want to text you. I want to live in an analog world. I just feel better being outside, reading physical books, and not looking at a goddamn screen.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI'm with you. What's important about that isn't actually what you said. This is going to sound like whatever, but what you said doesn't matter, actually. It's that you know who you are. That's what matters—that you know that you like that, that you've figured out that you like that.\n\nIt's good to figure out what you like eventually. A lot of people don't know what they like. They like what other people like. They like what they're supposed to like. They live up to other people's expectations. They kind of run someone else's business, in a sense—not like an executive running their business, but people grow businesses they think they have to grow because that's what you do.\n\nThey make decisions they think other people would make. They don't even have a sense of who they are and what they're all about yet. I hope all of them find it, because it's a wonderful thing when you know what you're into. You can also know that it might change, but you know that right now you're into that.\n\nThe other thing is, you don't need to pick sides. You can love digital, and you can love physical. They're all the same thing. We live on this speck of dust in space. It's all the same thing, right?\n\nIt doesn't really matter. What you like and why you like it—it just matters that you do, and that you know that you do. You don't even know why you do, but you do, and you respect and treat yourself to those things that you find beautiful.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSo, you told a story earlier. When you were making products, you were in high school, and you were designing them just for you.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou're the first user. That is an indication that you're comfortable trusting your own judgment. You just said it's really important to know who you are. At what age do you really think you finally figured out who you are?\n\nJason Fried\n\nI think probably more recently, frankly. I think I knew what I liked to do, but I'm not sure I still know fully who I am. That's the big question, right? Who are we and the whole thing?\n\nI don't totally feel like I should be certain about that. No one should be certain about that. But I feel like I've come more into my own since getting married and having kids.\n\nLooking back on maybe how I was, how I acted, and how I was in the world, I'm glad I am who I am now. I wouldn't want to be that person again.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhy? Didn't you say you used to have anger?\n\nJason Fried\n\nI think I was definitely more of a punk, you know? Like a young—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSay more.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI think I probably resented things for some reason. I had a chip on my shoulder. Maybe that was good. You've got to prove yourself when you're new to something, and you're young, and you're breaking in, and people don't think you're any good at what you do.\n\nThe only time I'm ever competitive is when someone slights me. Otherwise, I'm not competitive. If someone's like, “You can't do that,” or, “You guys aren't good enough,” then—\n\nI remember this. Early on in my career, when I was a web designer, before I made software, I just designed websites. I submitted a website design to an awards thing, and I'm trying to remember what it was. It might have been called the High Five Award or something. I can't quite remember what it was, and I can't remember the guy's name right now.\n\nDave Siegel, actually, was his name. I do remember now. Back in the day, getting an award from Dave Siegel, I think, was a big deal in the design community. So I submitted a design, and he wrote me back saying, “You suck. Literally, you suck. Find another day job.”\n\nAnd I loved that. I loved that. I love when someone says you can't do something, that you're not good at something, you know.\n\nMaybe this comes from being 5'7\", and I'm pretty good at basketball. You walk onto the court, and people don't think you're very good. I love that kind of stuff, right? So that just fired me up.\n\nAs far as finding confidence, I think I probably had a lot of that early on, when people were like, \"You're just one guy. How could you do this?\" Or, \"How could you do that?\" Or, \"You don't know what you're doing. You don't have a degree in this.\" That kind of thing fired me up for a while, but there's a point where you want—this is, again, to the point of wanting to launch—and then you want to find a place to settle, where you just come into your own at a certain point.\n\nI think I probably did that in my forties. I'm 51 now, so I think in my forties I probably came into my own, actually settled into my own. I had some psychedelic experiences, which helped as well.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nDid you?\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nJohn Mackey—I don't know if it was in the episode; I can't remember.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nBut this guy keeps trying to get me to do psychedelics. I think we talked about it at the end.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI was like, \"I'm not doing psychedelics.\" What did you do?\n\nJason Fried\n\nWhy not?\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI—\n\nJason Fried\n\nLet's turn this interview around.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nLet's go. It's a conversation. You can do whatever you want.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI think you and I both bond over this. There are some positive things—obviously, the tech industry, the Bay Area, and San Francisco have created great companies and great products—but there's also a lot of wacko shit.\n\nJason Fried\n\nSure.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThere's just too much drug use, in my opinion. I don't do drugs.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI like the way my mind is, and I don't want it to change.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYep.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI'm very resistant to doing drugs because I've also had these experiences. My cousin died of a heroin overdose. My dad did drugs his whole life. He went to jail for selling drugs.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI've never seen somebody high on cocaine make a great decision.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, yeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWe carry all the stuff that we experienced earlier, and I'm like, \"Well, what's the opposite of that?\"\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThe opposite of that is not doing drugs. So I'll just not do drugs.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI'm not here to convince you to do drugs.\n\nJason Fried\n\nNo, no, go for it. For me, the experience was very—\n\nAs I mentioned earlier, my favorite thing in life is to have an insight, and psychedelics for me were an avalanche of insights. It was fascinating to know that my mind could see things and understand things in ways I didn't know were possible.\n\nI could see—this will not make any sense, but maybe people who've done this will understand—you think of an idea, and I never thought an idea was like a 3D object that I could turn around and see from the other side. Not like a different perspective on an idea, but literally, I could turn it around and see what was behind it. Things like that fascinated me.\n\nHaving insights about the nature of existence and all this other stuff was fascinating, too, but just having—I remember, I've done this a few times, and the experiences are always like, \"Wow!\" While I'm doing it, I'm thinking, \"Wow, I never thought about it that way,\" or, \"I've never seen it that way.\"\n\nFor me, it's candy. This sounds like maybe candy and drugs, and I don't want to mix them, but there's a sweetness to having an insight that you've never had before about something you thought you knew, which psychedelics have shown me. But I don't do \"drugs.\"\n\nDavid Senra\n\nBut it's an insight of—\n\nJason Fried\n\nI've done this 3 times.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nHow does it help you know yourself better?\n\nJason Fried\n\nWell, that's not why I did it.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOkay.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI don't think I know myself better, but I feel more expansive now that there's more than I thought I knew. Here's how I thought about it afterward.\n\nYou have to picture an old car radio from maybe the 1950s. An old pickup truck had a car radio with a needle, and you could move the dial, and the needle would move, right? You'd get the little glass window with all the channels, and you're in one of the channels. That's where you are all the time. You're in this channel. 95.7 is you.\n\nPsychedelics let me turn the knob a little bit and tune into something else that's always been there, but I couldn't hear that frequency. It's amazing. If you look at a radio and turn the knob, you're picking up things that are there but that you can't hear until you turn the knob. That's what it was like for me.\n\nAnd how does it make me better at whatever I do, or help me know myself better? I think all experiences help you know yourself better. It's just a mirror and a reflection, a detail and a crumb, that creates the pile of you.\n\nI don't really know. It's not like that was a huge breakthrough for me, but it was fascinating enough to do it a few more times and learn a few more things that were just fascinating.\n\nOne thing I'll share—it's a little bit of an aside, but again, it comes back to this object thing. Maybe this is me seeing how my mind works that way, because we talked about objects before. I remember having this experience where I was puzzling through this 3D puzzle and being stumped by it, but enjoying the problem-solving.\n\nThen I finally—again, this is conceptual and metaphorical, not so literal—I turned it around and saw it from the back, and it was dead simple. What it basically told me was, \"Turn everything around. This is inverted. Everything's a lot simpler from behind.\"\n\nEverything's real. The back of things is real. The front of things is a front. The back of things is real. So what does that mean? How do I apply that? I don't try to apply that.\n\nThis is not about trying. It's just an insight and a revelation: get behind something to really know what it is. Again, I don't constantly refer to this, but it's something that I have now that I didn't have before, and I'm very glad I have it.\n\nSo that's part of it. It's just seeing through a different lens, and I'd rather have a few more lenses available to me, if I can, that are harmless. This is not heroin, cocaine, or that kind of stuff. Again, I'm not here to sell any of these things, and I'm not a doctor—all the disclaimers, right?\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI know. Yeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nBut I would say it was a very worthwhile experience for me.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nDid you read Rick Rubin's book, The Creative Act?\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nDo you think about things similarly to him?\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. When I read that book, I was like, \"Did I write this book?\" Not really. He wrote the book.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah. Okay.\n\nJason Fried\n\nBut you know what I mean? Like the—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI just read it. I just did an episode on it.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, yeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd when I hear you speak, he's just like, \"We live in a magic world.\" All that stuff's not— You have an intelligence that is not coming from your brain.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThe world is beyond your comprehension. You have to be comfortable with ambiguity and not knowing, and I just—\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nfeel I hear that from you constantly.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThere's Taoism in that, which is not knowing, not trying, not doing. The world just works somehow, in some magical way that we don't fully know. This isn't about getting metaphysical, actually. I want to bring it back, but I do think that there's something here.\n\nThis is part of the make-it-up-as-you-go philosophy of business, which is just going a bit more with the flow of where things go.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nMm-hmm.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThere's something very honest and real about that that works for me, and it's similar to what he's talking about. Things just happen. You don't need to know exactly why all the time, but feel into them, understand them, pay attention to them, and trust them. Trust your intuition, your gut.\n\nI'm a fully intuition- and gut-driven entrepreneur, and I don't even love that word, \"entrepreneur.\" I make products. There has to be a business around them. I run the business, but I'm gut- and intuition-driven.\n\nI don't look at numbers. I don't care about the numbers as long as we're profitable, and I know there's enough blubber in the business, as we've talked a little bit about.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nNo one's going to get that.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThat's fair.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou have to talk about the blubber. And then I want to get back to intuition.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. Okay.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd then we'll get back to Rick Rubin.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, sure.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou mentioned this point that your business should have some blubber. It's very memorable. What does that mean to you?\n\nJason Fried\n\nI had not said that before until last night. The word \"blubber\" just came to me. I don't want to run a very tight-margin business where I can't make mistakes or I'm afraid of them. I believe in cushy margins.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nBlubber.\n\nJason Fried\n\nSo we can screw up, and it won't matter that much. I mean, it can matter, obviously. I'm not oblivious to the reality that businesses can go out of business. They do all the time. All of them eventually do, basically, at some point.\n\nWe take risks. We don't put ourselves at risk. That's how I like to think about this. I'm willing to take plenty of risks, but I'm not going to do something that's going to bet the farm unless we have to.\n\nAnd if I'm at the point where I have to, I feel like it's over already anyway, frankly. I'm not interested in betting the farm. It's just not even that fun. I'd rather just have the farm than not have the farm.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSo a big margin of safety is the way you think about it.\n\nJason Fried\n\nA big margin of safety.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nA lot of cash, high profit margins. You still pay attention to your costs.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. We pay attention to costs.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah, yeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nWhen we talk about cutting costs, David Heinemeier Hansson wrote this great article about how getting off the cloud is going to save us something like $10 million, or whatever it is.\n\nA lot of people are like, \"Why are you putting in all this effort to save $10 million?\" It's because it's our money, man. We don't have outside funding, and I don't want any outside funding.\n\nEveryone has wanted to give us money over the years. I don't want anyone's money. It's our money. We make money through our customers, through revenue.\n\nSo we take very good care of that money, and we're careful with it, and we watch our costs. So again, if you want to stay in business, your only competition is your costs, assuming you want to stay in business. These are the things that I'm paying attention to, and I want to have margin.\n\nThat's why we keep the company small. We don't spend money on marketing. We've spent some money on marketing over the years, but it's been a rounding error for 27 years. We don't waste money on stupid things. We just don't blow it on things. We save it, keep it, and allow ourselves to make more mistakes elsewhere that we enjoy trying and making.\n\nI would not want to run a grocery store. I don't want to run a 2% or 1% margin business. What's always blown me away is how many companies in Silicon Valley that are in the software business lose gobs and gobs of money. It's the most unbelievable thing for an industry like Silicon Valley to lose so much money on the highest-margin product in history: software.\n\nThere are no costs, nothing. There's nothing to software. It's bits. There are some data costs, but they're basically zero, all things considered. And there are still companies blowing billions that have never made a penny. They're big companies that you know of, just blowing money. It blows my mind. It seems so incredibly irresponsible to me, but that's just me coming from a small-business entrepreneur mindset, I suppose. I just don't get that world.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSo the blubber, if we're going to use—\n\nJason Fried\n\nThe blubber. Let's get back to the blubber.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThe blubber helps you stay in business.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, it's fat reserves. You should have those. It's cool to have 6% body fat, but it's not a good thing to live that way for a long period of time. If you're stuck out in the wilderness for a while, you need to burn something, right?\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou're dead.\n\nJason Fried\n\nSo we've lived through the dot-com crash, the 2008 stuff, and COVID. We have fat on the bone. I think it's very important to have that and not just be at the bone.\n\nThe other thing is that because we're an LLC, at the end of the year, whatever money is left over goes to the members, the unit holders, which are me, David, and 2 other people on the cap table. Also, 10% of our profits go to our employees every year.\n\nIt's based on longevity, not seniority. The 2 aren't the same thing. It's based on how long you've been here. You basically accrue units every month, up to 10 years' worth of units. At that point, you've maxed out your units, and we distribute profits based on that.\n\nIt's not based on which role you're in. It's not based on your salary or your title. If you've been here for 10 years and you're a principal software engineer making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, your profit-sharing bonus is the same as someone in customer support who's maybe making $90,000 or $100,000 and who's been here for 10 years.\n\nAll that money goes to real people. It's real money, real cash. No options, no RSUs, no stock—any of that bullshit. I find almost all of that to be pretty much bullshit unless you're a really well-established public company.\n\nOur bonuses are based on profits. We've been profitable for 27 years, and they're distributed every year, and they're meaningful. I looked this up before the show: about 20 out of the 62 people last year—or 2024, because we haven't closed the final books on 2025 yet—received 6-figure bonuses. This is year after year after year after year. It's real cash.\n\nThat's the beauty of a simple business, a simple cap table, an LLC, and sharing real profits. There are plenty of people in our industry, plenty of our competitors, which I'm not going to name, that hire a lot of people and promise them a lot of stock. You look at the chart, and it's down and to the right. I feel bad for those people because they were promised something they'll never, ever get.\n\nGetting back to real, I want to pay people with real money they can actually put toward a down payment on a home, pay for their kids' college education, go on vacation, sock it away, or whatever they want to do. This is real cash on an annual basis, and this is all part of a good business with sound fundamentals that has high margins and high profits and is an LLC, so we can distribute it every year.\n\nWe have to. In fact, you can't leave any money in an LLC. You can, but you've got to pay taxes. Anyway—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI know.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYou know what I mean. I just wanted to say that for the pedantic person watching.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThe wrong show for this. I want to go back to Rick Rubin and you knowing yourself through this psychedelic experience, partially in your 40s. Before you had that experience, what was your inner monologue like? Let's say when you're running your business, you're 10 years into it, and you're 35 years old at the time. Did you have a negative inner monologue?\n\nJason Fried\n\nNo, I think I was just more aggressive. I don't know how I'm coming off. I try to be pretty steady.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou're definitely not. You're like a soulful dude.\n\nJason Fried\n\nOkay, good. Well, I don't know. Sometimes I have a scowl, and people think I was probably a lot more aggressive—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nNo, it's not a scowl. The kids call it—\n\nJason Fried\n\nProbably resting face—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nRBF: resting bitch face.\n\nJason Fried\n\nOh, yeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou should see our photographer, Mike.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nHe sends me pictures of me, and I'm like, “I'm happy!”\n\nJason Fried\n\nYou're like, “I'm happy!” Exactly.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThere are so many times when I'm literally having this conversation, and this is how I know I'm going to do this for a long time. I'm thinking, “This is so much fun. Can I do it again tomorrow?”\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. Exactly.\n\nI think I was more aggressive, or I don't even know. I kind of don't remember myself, actually. I'll pull it back to something else, and then I'll come back to this thing in my mid-30s, perhaps. But we don't do postmortems. I don't look back on things. I don't like to look back on things, actually.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nJimmy Iovine sat in that exact same chair, and he said, “I have no rearview mirror.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, that's how I feel.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nNo trophy room. Just like—\n\nJason Fried\n\nSo you're asking, “What were you like at 35?” I don't know. Probably more aggressive, but I don't really know. I'll tell you why: I don't like to look backward.\n\nFirst of all, backward is a story you're telling yourself about what you remember about something, and it's probably not true. It's probably perverted in a million different ways. There are a million different things that have happened to you that cause you to be the way you were, and I don't know what any of them are.\n\nThe reason I don't like postmortems in business—and I know a lot of businesses do this—is that they launch something, spend all this time and energy looking back on it, and try to figure out why it did what it did. My general sense is that you'll have no fucking idea why it did what it did. You'll find some reasons that you're going to believe, but had you done that again, it may have turned out differently.\n\nWho knows? One little thing could have been different, the world could have been different, or the way you said something could have been different. If you want to find certainty, you're going to find it because you'll convince yourself of it. I just don't have any interest in looking back. I'd rather learn by doing something again and making more things.\n\nPeople say, “Well, you should learn from your mistakes.” I'm not sure what you can learn from them, frankly. I think you learn from moving forward and doing something. You learn by doing. You can't redo what you did; you learn by doing.\n\nIf you don't like something that you did and you have it in your head, just don't do that again. That's the learning. It takes 1 second to know that, move on, and learn by doing new things.\n\nI don't like to look back. That's not absolving myself of things I'm not proud of. That's who I was when I did those things, and that's that. I'm moving forward.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI want to pull up something. The reason I asked about the negative inner monologue is that it's very common with a lot of people. We've been talking a lot about Rick Rubin, and I love his answer to this, which sounds like, if I were going to ask you this question now, you would answer it in a similar way.\n\nHe was asked the question, “Do you have an engine of constant dissatisfaction and self-criticism—that you could have done better?” Can I guess?\n\nJason Fried\n\nGo ahead.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI don't know what it is.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYou couldn't have done any differently than what you did. Is that his answer?\n\nDavid Senra\n\nVery close.\n\nJason Fried\n\nAnd I believe that to be true. Go ahead.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSo this is what I wanted to know: how do you look at this? I was going to ask you to answer that question next.\n\nRick Rubin said, “No, I'm pleased with the work that we did, excited to keep working. It's fun.” You've said this multiple times today.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n“I don't know what else I'd do with myself. I like making things. It's fun.” That sounds like you again.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n“I feel like it's my reason to be on the planet, so I just keep doing it. If it could have been better, I would've kept working on it. If it could be better, it's not done. I've done everything I can to make it the best it can be. I can't do more than that, so there's nothing to be critical of. It's almost like a diary entry.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n“Everything we make is a reflection of a moment in time. It could be a day or it could be a year.”\n\nJason Fried\n\n100%. That's exactly how I see things. I did what I did. I did the best I could—or the worst I could, whatever it is. It was what I did, and there it goes. Now what? That doesn't mean be an asshole to people.\n\nYou can be an asshole. Other people remember what you did, too, so you want to be a good, honest person anyway. But some people might hear this—that’s why I’m saying this—and go, “Well, that’s an excuse to just do whatever the hell you want. There are no ramifications to any of these things.” There are ramifications to these things, but they are written in history, and that is that.\n\nI’ve always just tried to do the best I can. This is why I’m going to tie this back to numbers. We don’t have revenue targets, except that I want to be profitable. I don’t have sales targets, revenue targets, or user targets. I don’t have any of these things.\n\nWe just do the best work we can. A target shouldn’t make me do better work. I should do better work because of the pride I take in the work that I do, the seriousness with which I take the work that I do, and the enjoyment in the work that I do. I’m going to do the best I can. That’s what I do. That’s all I can do, and that’s all I should be doing.\n\nI don’t need something to tell me that I could do better if I had aimed for some target. The target is the work I’m doing now. That’s the best I can do. So, I’m fully on board. He said it more eloquently than I did, but that’s how I’ve always felt about this stuff, which is why I don’t like measurement.\n\nI just like the product. The product is the measurement, not the number of things that people have done with it, used it, or whatever. It is what it is. The number—the money—is ultimately the byproduct of making something good. It’s not the reason to do it.\n\nPeople are in search of certainty all the time, and I think it’s nowhere to be found. But it makes people very uncomfortable not to know why something happened. And, by the way, I shouldn’t say it’s not to be found. If you’re making widgets on a line and the widget’s supposed to have a circle in the middle, and all of a sudden the circle’s off, you can trace that back to where the machine went offline. You can figure out some of these things.\n\nOf course, if they’re mechanical, you can track it all down. But most businesses are not mechanical in that way. They are a series of decisions, ideas, timing, market conditions, competitor conditions, perhaps your mood on a given day, the way it rolled out, and what other news was happening that day.\n\nTrying to pinpoint the answer and then say, “Okay, next time we know what not to do or what to do,” and feeling like you now know something that you actually don’t know—but being so certain that you do because you’ve “figured it out”—I think is really dangerous.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIs that why I’ve heard you say a few times that you don’t think you could do Basecamp again today?\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, no way could I do it again today.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThe number of friends I have who sold a company and thought, “I’m good at company building.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd then their second shot isn’t going well or ends in failure, and it really made them question who they are. I think that’s actually an important thing to say. It’s like, maybe you don’t know why it actually succeeded.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, I think that’s true. You don’t know why it didn’t work, and you don’t know why it worked. I really think that’s true.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nBut people don’t understand how devastating that is, where you sold a successful company. First of all, it’s nearly impossible to build a successful company. Just a tiny percentage of humans who have ever existed have been able to accomplish this goal.\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight. Yes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThis is why I started one of the shows, because I want to celebrate the people who have done this and say, “Hey, if you want a role model, maybe people who build companies and products that make other people’s lives better are good people to listen to and hear speak. They probably know some shit if they’ve been doing it for multiple decades.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIt turns out, they have a lot of wisdom, or they’ve acquired a lot of knowledge in that.\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nBut it’s so devastating to have had that.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd then, in the case—I always think of Trader Joe’s, because again, talk about being different.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou and I bond over the fact that we want to make products that are different. I’m not interested in making a me-too product. It doesn’t need to exist.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nHe had a completely differentiated product. He loved it. He wrote this autobiography. It was very fascinating because, I would say, 90% of the pages are about building Trader Joe’s. He clearly loves it. It’s very difficult.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nHe just put his whole heart and soul into it.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThen he gets scared, and he winds up selling it, I think in the 1970s, if I remember correctly. It may have been the ’80s. He sold it because he was fearful.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThen he lived another few decades. I think at least 3, maybe 4 decades.\n\nJason Fried\n\nMm.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nA long time. The last 10% is like, “Yeah, I did some investing, I did some real estate, I did some consulting.” But then the last paragraph is like, “I must admit something to myself. I wasn’t true. I regret selling.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nMm.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n“Thanks for listening, Joe Coulombe.” I don’t know how to pronounce his last name. I don’t know how to pronounce anything.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI’ll call him Joe Coulombe.\n\nJason Fried\n\nDo it in a French accent, please.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nBut then he goes, you know, “Thanks for listening, Joe Coulombe.” The book gets published, and he dies the same week.\n\nJason Fried\n\nOh!\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nWow, that’s quite a story.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd I always think about that when you’re like—\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThis guy’s life, you could tell, is full of regret.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nFull of regret.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. I know people like that.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah. And it tends to happen in your 30s, once you’ve built this big thing and sold the first thing, and you’re like, “I’m loaded now and I’m going to—”\n\nJason Fried\n\nYou have decades ahead of you.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nDecades left.\n\nJason Fried\n\nAnd it’s not arrogance, it’s just belief, like, “Oh, I can do that again.” And some people can. Most people cannot. Or if they can, they don’t reach the same height. And so, they’re jumping, and it’s like if you try to jump 100 times, you can’t get to those first jumps because you’re tired, and that’s just what ends up happening.\n\nThen they might build something great, but they can’t see the greatness in it because it’s not as great as the thing before. That’s even more tragic: They can’t see something that’s still an incredible achievement, but it’s not the same. Other people will see it as less than, and it’s just a terrible outcome.\n\nI’m afraid of it, not so much anymore. But David and I talk about this all the time, which is, we do negative visualization and practice. So, with AI, what if this just changes the whole damn landscape and soft SaaS is just dead in three years? Our answer is, “Well, we had a great run.” Like, 27 years—amazing—and by that time, maybe 30 years. What a run.\n\nWe should be happy and proud of that experience. Not like, “Oh, damn, that sucks that we’re out of this now.” More like, “We should be enjoying this, and I hope we sure did, because that’s a rare and fortunate experience to even have.”\n\nBut I wouldn’t go and start another business after that. I would just do something else. I don’t know what it would be, but I wouldn’t want to try to do this again because I don’t think I could. I don’t think I could, and I think it’s totally fair to admit, “I don’t think I’m good enough again to do what I did before.”\n\nI don’t have the stamina. I don’t have the drive. I don’t have the thirst and the hunger to build a brand-new software company from scratch again. I just don’t. I would have the curiosity, but I know that wouldn’t carry me enough.\n\nProbably early on, I was more aggressive, younger, pumped. It was the early days, and we were pioneers. There’s that kind of energy that you have that you just don’t have again, and it’s fine. It’s fine.\n\nI think one of the great examples—I think it was Bob Dylan being interviewed on 16 Minutes, and I think it was Morley Safer or something was asking him about songwriting. I don’t know if you’ve seen this quote, but it’s great. He was reciting one of his great songs. I forget the name of the song, and he still has an incredible memory for these incredible lyrics.\n\nHe said something like, “I used to be able to write music like that.” I’m paraphrasing. “I used to be able to do that. There was a certain magic to that. I don’t know how I did that. I know I couldn’t do it again, but I can do other things now.”\n\nWhen I saw that, I thought, “That is a mature—” I mean, he’s in his 80s now. I hope he’s mature. But that is a mature human being: to go, “I could do that before. I don’t really know how I did it. Somehow I did it. I can’t do it anymore, but I can do other things.”\n\nAnd I think that’s important, because if you identify as an entrepreneur and sell your business, and your identity is tied up in entrepreneurship, you have to go start another because there’s continuity there. You have to be that person again. Then, if you can’t achieve the same heights, you just feel like you’re a disappointment.\n\nI’ve seen this in friends who’ve sold businesses, and it’s just so sad to me to see that in them, when they can’t see that what they did was incredible in that moment. These are moments that you have. These are periods of time that you have. These are experiences you have, and that’s what happened in that time.\n\nActually, can I go back to psychedelics for a second?\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI’m going to tell you a little story. I don’t know if it’s good or not, but it’s meaningful to me. The last time I did mushrooms, I remember going into it and telling the guide I did them with that I’d had this incredible experience with one song the first time. She was playing different songs, and when she played this one song, I had an experience where I just felt like I learned everything in an instant.\n\nThe next time I did it, I said, “Can you play that song again at some point? I want to see if I have that experience again.” She said, “Yeah, maybe. We’ll see.” At some point, I was aware enough that she played the song, and I had no experience. It was blank and empty.\n\nAfter the song ended, I broke out in laughter and said, “Of course, you cannot have the same experience again. You cannot have the same experience twice. You don’t deserve the same experience twice. It’s not even possible to relive something again. That thing happened then, and this is now. They’re detached, they’re separate, they can never be the same.” It was a wonderful thing.\n\nSo I’ve now used that with my kids. My kids are growing up. They’re 11 and 7. I’m never going to have the experience with my 11-year-old again as an 11-year-old. Once he’s 12, he’s 12. I can’t have that again. So you have to really savor those things now and recognize that they are what they are now, and you will never get them again. Don’t be sad about that. It just is.\n\nThat’s the kind of stuff—the experiences that I had in those times—that I carry with me and hopefully do affect the way I move through the world today.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThat’s beautiful.\n\nJason Fried\n\nMm.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhen you were talking about selling a company, and then maybe your next company in this entrepreneur’s life is not as financially successful or big—\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n—or as well-respected, I’ve never heard a great definition of what success means. The best answer I ever heard to “What is success to you?” actually came from Steve Jobs, and it was beautifully simple. It was, “Did I make something I’m proud of?”\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt’s good.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt’s good.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThat’s the way I think about it. For your podcast, you need a certain number of listeners. It’s like, no: Did I make something I’m proud of?\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThat’s great. I think that’s great.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThe way I think about it is, would I want to do this again?\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThe next day?\n\nJason Fried\n\nJust this—whatever this was. Would I want to do it again? If the answer is yes, then it was successful. If I hurt myself, I wouldn’t want to do that again. If I wasn’t proud of what I said, I wouldn’t want to do it again.\n\nIt’s the same thing as knowing what I know now, would I hire this person again? It’s the same question. Would I want to do whatever I just did again? If so, it’s successful. I think that’s enough of a definition for me. It’s not about money or any of those things. It’s, “Would I want to do it again? Would I want to spend my time doing that again, playing it back?”\n\nI know it wouldn’t be the same outcome, but the experience of it would be different. It would still be the same trajectory. I’d like to do that thing again.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou were speaking earlier about humans’ propensity to take something simple and make it complex. Even though we crave simplicity and abhor complexity, we trend in the trajectory of making things more complex.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI don’t know why, when you were speaking, this came to my mind, but one of my favorite podcast episodes ever was back in 2023, when Rick Rubin interviewed Jimmy Iovine. They talked about one of the first times Rick met Jimmy Iovine.\n\nJimmy was already a legend. He was 10 years older than Rick, so he was well-known. Rick was there with another music executive, and Rick played Jimmy a song he had just produced. Jimmy said something that changed Rick’s life, or the way he thought about things. He said, “Oh, I wish I could still make something that simple.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nMm-hmm.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nRick said, “What do you mean? I’m sure you can. You’re better at this than I am. You have a lot more experience than I do. You’ve been doing this a lot longer.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOf course, you can make something simple. The point was that you don’t know what you don’t know.\n\nJason Fried\n\nMm-hmm.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nHe had made this beautiful, simple thing, and then you tend to think you need to add more things to it and make it more complex.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nJimmy just gets right to the heart of the issue. That’s the way he is when you’re with him. He’ll say one sentence, and he gets right to the heart of the issue.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, it sounds like an incredible skill to have. I think that is the trend: to add more things, naturally. Part of it is because you feel like people get bored of things, so you have to expand them. Or there are expectations to do more, and people put a lot of pressure on themselves as business owners. They take money from the outside world, and they have to grow a certain amount because they have to return the investment.\n\nAll of a sudden, they’ve unmoored themselves. They’ve lost connection with why they started this in the first place. They’re no longer running their own business. They’re running someone else’s business. They just created a job for themselves, working for someone else.\n\nThat’s what can happen when you take the simple thing you had and add a layer to it that blows it up in a different direction. In some cases—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIt makes it worse.\n\nJason Fried\n\nFor some people, it makes it better, right? But I think for a lot of people, it makes it worse, because now you’re on a track you can’t get off. There’s only 1 outcome that works.\n\nThis is optionality. Let me get into this. My feeling, in general, is that businesses—the most important thing to me in business is independence. Profitability is also the same thing, actually. As long as I make more money than I spend, I can stay in business. That’s independence.\n\nIndependence also means no one can tell us what to do. We actually feel obligated to do things nobody would allow us to do. That’s a thing David and I talk about all the time: “We should do this. No one would let us do this. Let’s do it!” That’s the exciting stuff for us, the stuff we’re not supposed to be doing.\n\nThat, to me, is a big part of it. What ends up happening is—and this is so funny—there’s no dry cleaner who’s raising venture capital money, right? There’s no pizza shop that’s raising venture capital money. Most businesses in the world are not like this. But in my industry, a lot of people have an idea and go raise money.\n\nThe moment they go raise money, they’ve cut off almost every option. They think they’ve expanded their experience and their opportunities, but they’ve cut off almost every possible off-ramp outcome, because now they have to be a big business or they fail. That’s it. That’s 1 option.\n\nSome people become very rich doing that, if that’s what they want to do. But most people blow right through what would have been a good business, and it’s now not good enough for someone else. Once it’s not good enough for someone else, that’s got to be a shitty place to be as an entrepreneur, thinking that you just gave up this thing that was actually a good business but isn’t good enough anymore.\n\nYou can’t get more money. You built a business to raise more money. You built a business that needs more money. Now you’ve got to lay people off. Now it just falls apart, and it’s over, because you have no options except 1.\n\nI’m a big fan of optionality. We could go public. I don’t want to. We could raise money. I don’t want to. We could raise more money. I don’t want to. We could sell to private equity. I don’t want to. We could quit. I don’t want to.\n\nThese are all options that we have. We can keep going for as long as we want, as long as the business survives. We can do that, right? That is gold to me: optionality. I’d like to see more people think that way, because I think it’ll benefit them. Don’t cut yourself off when you think there’s this mirage that says, “Oh, I got a bunch of money, and I can do anything now.”\n\nNo, you can do 1 thing: build a big business. That’s not a lot of things.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI feel you’re attracted to timeless things. You have 2 tweets. One of them just went viral, and it’s related to this—craving simplicity and abhorring complexity.\n\nJason Fried\n\nHmm.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOne was about the design of a Rolex over time. Was it the design of a Rolex? Or was it the brand of—\n\nJason Fried\n\nMm-hmm. Yeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhich brand was it?\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt might have been Rolex. There are a few. It could have been an Omega Speedmaster. They’ve just maintained the same design. The Porsche 911 is similar.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nBut you were showing pictures from, I think—let’s just say it was Rolex.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. Yeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nLook at this Rolex design in 1960.\n\nJason Fried\n\nOh, yeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nBasically perfect.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIt has everything I need, nothing I don’t.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nLook at the updated version, whatever, 2010.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nLook at all the other stuff they added.\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhy are you drawn to the first?\n\nJason Fried\n\nI’m drawn to the first because of the purity of it. I don’t think the new one is bad. What attracts me is the purity of the first one, because that is the purest form of the idea.\n\nI love ideas and insights. Someone had an insight to design a watch that looked like that, and then from there, everyone based their designs off that initial thing. But there was a time when that was the first thing that looked like that. That gets me going.\n\nFor example, you take a Rolex Daytona today and look back at the first one in 1963. To me, the one in 1963—not just because it’s older—is better aesthetically, in my opinion, because it’s the purest form of the concept, of the idea.\n\nEverything else from there has been layered on because they need to sell more, they need to come up with a new version, a new model, and this is what happens. They couldn’t still sell that first version. That’s not the way the world works. You have to keep making new stuff, right?\n\nDavid Senra\n\nPurity is the word that comes to mind: purity and—\n\nJason Fried\n\nInteresting.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n—the pure idea, the pure form of the thing. Could you use the word “essence,” or no?\n\nJason Fried\n\nI mean, essence is part of it. I think maybe you could.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhat’s the French word for essence? I want to hear you say it: “Essence.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nI don’t know what the hell it is.\n\nBut it’s more about, to me, purity. That’s the beauty: this is the initial idea, the original concept, and the first execution of that idea in 3 dimensions, in a product.\n\nActually, the gym I used to go to had some old Concept2 rowers. Getting back to the Concept2, I really liked looking at the early ones and then looking at the changes over the years. In that case, the changes were more functional: they used better materials that lasted longer and stuff. But the idea—the fact that this product, which is so good today, was so pure back then and is still kind of the same thing—made me more attached to the brand. They didn’t just add stuff to add stuff. They added stuff that literally improved things, not just to sell new models. You could see the material changes.\n\nMeanwhile, a lot of things, like watches, are just new dial colors and new stuff to sell more.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThat’s a great point.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou’re adding to it, but you’re not making it better.\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight. There we go.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSo that’s the second viral tweet, where you laid out this huge essay about smart electronics.\n\nJason Fried\n\nOh, God! My parents were visiting for a couple of months, so we rented them a house down the street so they had more room. They liked their room. It was a brand-new construction house, so we thought, “Oh, it’s nice. There’ll be no issues—no leaks and no issues.”\n\nWe got in the house, and, like most new construction, it had digital shit everywhere. The thermostats weren’t thermostats that you could just turn anymore; they were touchscreens. Some of those are good, like Nest.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThis didn’t have Nest. Nest is a great product. It’s funny because it’s a great product based on the original Honeywell design, that Dreyfuss design—I forget his first name—the round dial. Nest just updated that because it’s such a good design.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThese are rectangular and big. They have the weather forecast on them—or whatever. Actually, the thermostats don’t; that’s the alarm panel. It’s like a huge iPad screen.\n\nAnyway, there were screens everywhere, and everything was a touchscreen. Everything was a big black-glass thing with too much stuff on it, because you’ve got to fill up the screen. You can’t just have a tiny screen; you’ve got to have a big screen, and if you have a big screen, you put stuff on it.\n\nThe dishwasher couldn’t be used the first time without an app to register it. My mom wanted to do the dishes, but it didn’t work. She had to call the house manager guy. He had to come down, and he was like, “Why doesn’t this work?” He plugged it in and said, “Oh, there’s an app. I’ve got to get an app.”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nLike, what?\n\nJason Fried\n\nYou’re adding and not making it better.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nTo do the dishes?\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, exactly. Your insight is exactly right: adding it, not making it better.\n\nThe alarm panel was slow and laggy. The thermostats showed a number on them, and you were like, “Is that the current temperature or the temperature I want it to be?” I changed the temperature, but then there was a schedule that I couldn’t quickly and simply modify, because it was in this little menu structure with this little laggy UI. You’re like, “Does anyone use this?” The people who built this certainly don’t have this in their house. There’s no way. This is not a product built by people who are using the product they’re building. This is a product built to specifications. Someone imagined this. I don’t actually know how that happens. I’m baffled by how it happens.\n\nThe TVs, you know, now—I’m not a Luddite old-timer. But you don’t turn a TV on anymore; you boot the TV up, and it takes 12 seconds to get a menu before you can do anything. Again, there were some things that were better before.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYou turned the TV on, and the channel that you were on would be on. That was good! It’s amazing—you can’t do that today. That’s actually not even a possible thing. You turn it on, and you’re back to some menu with all the options again. It’s like, “How do we go backward?”\n\nI call this the great regression. Thermostats have gotten worse. Nest may be an exception—I’ll grant them that. Good product. A really good product. Big alarm panels, a lot of panels, a lot of third-party products with big glass screens: bad. Touchscreens are often bad.\n\nIn fact, car manufacturers—with the exception of Tesla, because Tesla’s is outstanding—but everyone else who put a bunch of screens in their cars is starting to move back to dials and buttons again, because people are like, “This sucks.” Software is hard, and a big piece of glass has no tactile feedback. I can’t do it without looking at it. There’s no muscle memory, because I’m not sure I’m just confirming what I’m doing. These are bad things.\n\nSo the technology can get worse, and then it can slide back, and hopefully it can get better again, and new lessons can be learned. But it was a revelation to me to go into a new home with state-of-the-art stuff and see how backward it was. I’m in technology. Again, I’m not a Luddite. I’m not afraid of this stuff; I get it. But to see how bad it’s gotten—\n\nThe light switches, literally—when we rented the place, my agent, who found it, did the negotiations, and so on, said, “Hey, they want to do a walkthrough with you.” I said, “Cool, I’ll be there tomorrow.” I thought the walkthrough was going to be just like, “Here’s the house,” but it was like, “No, here’s how you use the lights.” You’re like, “I have to—what? What?”\n\nThe best interface ever was the switch.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIt’s on, off.\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt works.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOn, off. Beautiful!\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt’s almost like the way I see it is that it hasn’t been discovered yet. I mean, it had been, but then it had been forgotten. This is like an old technology from the Romans or something. How did they build concrete so well? We still don’t know today how the Romans built concrete so well that it lasted so long. There’s a lost art there.\n\nI feel like the light switch is a lost art. It’s just gone. It will be rediscovered one day, and people will be like, “Oh, my God, this is so much better than this damn technical shit,” you know?\n\nThere’s a room and a place for all sorts of advancements, but there also are regressions. It’s unfortunate that the industry I’m in is the one that tends to sell many of these to people.\n\nIt makes me think of—again, I’m going to tie this back to Rick Rubin, since we’ve been talking about him a lot.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nHe has this concept of a ruthless edit.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nRick just has candles in his house, I’m guessing. He just doesn’t—\n\nJason Fried\n\nI don’t know. These guys are close with him. Ask him.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOkay.\n\nJason Fried\n\nBut he has this idea of a ruthless edit, and he’s like, “Okay, you made 30 songs for your album?”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah, yeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nHe’s like, “Pick the 5 that you absolutely can’t live without.” So now we have a 5-song album. It’s a perfect album.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nMaybe he needs some more.\n\nJason Fried\n\nSo he’s like, “But then we decide, out of the 25 left, before we add numbers 6 and 7, did it make it better?”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYes.\n\nJason Fried\n\nGoing back to, “You’re adding to it, but you’re not making it better.”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI think the throughline here is that you see this timeless design of the 1963 Daytona.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThere’s nothing else that’s going to make it better, so just leave it. It is perfect.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nI know you’re a big fan of Porsche.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. It seems like the silhouette is very similar.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah. In fact, here in Malibu, do you remember going up PCH? There was that burned-out car toward the Palisades, on the right-hand side.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI do, yes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou could just tell it was a 911. Why is it still here?\n\nJason Fried\n\nBut you knew it was a 911.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou knew it was a 911.\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt’s a 997, in fact.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIt sat there for a year, by the way.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, yeah. But immediately, the other cars next to it burned out. I have no idea what they were.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah, which model is that? Exactly. But that was just like—\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n—I know exactly what that is.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI know.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd I think about that all the time. I think products should think about this.\n\nJerry Seinfeld has this really interesting concept where he says, “Dosage matters.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nMm.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou could go see a stand-up comedian, and 45 minutes in, you’re like, “This guy’s great.” At 1 hour and 15 minutes, you go, “Eh.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt’s like he should have stopped at 45.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt’s so hard for us to stop—to stop adding complexity, to just sit there.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nWhen I asked you about timeless design, go back to Rick Rubin. What I love about him and that exchange between him and Jimmy Iovine, which happened probably 40 years ago, is that Rick would say, “Somebody playing the piano—a piano and a beautiful vocal—sounded great 50 years ago—”\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n“—sounds great today.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nThat’s right.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n“It’ll sound great 50 years from now.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nPeriod.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nWhen he tried to revive Johnny Cash’s career, there’s this great song called “Hurt,” which I listen to all the time.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, sure.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n“‘Hurt’ by Nine Inch Nails.” Exactly—that’s Trent Reznor of Nine Inch Nails. As a 21-year-old man, he wrote it, and he’s talking about regret. Rick’s point was that a 21-year-old talking about regret is one thing. A 75-year-old man, when he can’t go back and fix it—\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n—it’s a way deeper cut.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nBut his whole point is, “A great vocalist with a guitar sounded great 50 years ago.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nAlways.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIt sounds great today. Let’s just go back to the essence of what we’re actually—\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\n—building, and I think not many people building products—you just gave the perfect example. There’s no essence there.\n\nThey're not even using their own products.\n\nJason Fried\n\nNo. No. This actually ties into some other advice that Jeff Bezos gave us way back, right when we first met him. He told us to focus on the things in our business that don't change. He goes, “There's going to be plenty of things that do change, but make sure you focus on the things that don't change.”\n\nThe examples he gave us were something like, “10 years from now, people are not going to wake up and go, ‘I wish Amazon's customer service was worse.’ They're not going to wake up 10 years from now and go, ‘I wish it took longer to get a product from Amazon.’ They're not going to say 10 years from now, ‘I wish Amazon's prices were higher.’” These are the core essence elements that he clearly invested in.\n\nThings are coming faster than ever. Another one is, “People aren't going to wake up 10 years from now and go, ‘I wish I couldn't get this on Amazon.’” More selection, faster delivery, great customer service, fair prices—even competing against other people and offering a lower price, even if Amazon doesn't sell it. These are the things in his business that he knew would never change, and he can still explore a whole bunch of other things because they do a lot of other things.\n\nBut don't lose sight of those basics. That's something that he really instilled in us, and something we've tried to focus on. So, this is the essence: What is the essence, the purity, or the core fundamental basics that really matter? Don't lose sight of those, because it's very easy to lose sight of them. They can become boring. “I've done that for a while. Let's do something else.” You can kind of lose sight of that.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThis is why I think people that have run companies for as long as you have are so rare, and it's why, if you look at the first few guests, I bet you, if you took the average length of time a person has been working in their business, it's probably 30 years. You said you like old people.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. People always say I'm obsessed with old people, which is funny. But I'm not obsessed with old people. I'm obsessed with people that do—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nLongevity.\n\nJason Fried\n\n—things for a long period of time.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThis is where you and I will actually have a disagreement. You're like, “I don't work hard.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, yeah, I do. Do you remember talking about this last night?\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah. And I was like, “Jason, Jason,” and we added it up. I literally pulled out my phone last night and did the math.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYou did. You did the math.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYou're like, “But I only work 40 hours a week.” I go, “Yeah, 40 hours a week over 27 years.” Whatever that number is, I think it's 54,000 hours or whatever the number is.\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd my question back to you is, “How many people have worked on the same thing for 54,000 hours?”\n\nJason Fried\n\nI don't know.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nA tiny, tiny amount.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. I just like that you spread it across time. Probably.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah, I suppose. Again, it's one day at a time, so it wasn't intended.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYou were laying bricks.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI was just laying bricks.\n\nJason Fried\n\nI just keep doing it. It adds up, and the path gets bigger and adds up. That's what happens. But I've always admired things that have stuck around for a long time.\n\nWe used to have a podcast back in the day called “The Distance,” which was a podcast we did for a few years about businesses that had been around for 25 years or more. Maybe that's not even that long, all things considered, but it's quite long for most.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI listened to it.\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt was awesome, and most of these were family-owned small businesses. They just nailed some things and got them right, and I love businesses like that that have been around for a long time.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI'm not talking about us here, but there's something about a business being around that long: It's not a fluke. You can have something that's hot for a while, and it can go out. That's kind of a fluke, or a trend, or a fad, or something. But to be around for a long time signals that there's something repeatedly right about this thing—right enough to stay in business for a long time.\n\nA lot of these businesses are tight. You could have a dry cleaner whose margins are thin, and maybe it's just enough for them to get by. But they'd rather still be doing that than something else, so they're in it for a long time. It's not that it's a great business, but it's a sustainable business. And that, to me, is a great business. If they can keep doing that—\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight. There you go.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIt's the same insight you had earlier with the leaf. You're like, “Why don't you look at this leaf? It has evolved forever.”\n\nDo you know who Mark Spitznagel is?\n\nJason Fried\n\nNo.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI read his book called “The Dao of Capital,” probably 7 years ago. He runs this hedge fund. I don't even know if he's still doing it anymore. But he has an entire chapter in that book on conifer trees.\n\nJason Fried\n\nUh-huh.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nHe's like, “They're the tree that is present and can survive in the most extreme environments on Earth. They've been evolving for an extremely long period of time.” He was drawing all these parallels between a great business that could survive, using the insights he derived from studying these trees, which I think is very fascinating.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah. I love it. I've often thought of our business as an oak tree. I love oak trees. Oak trees are trees that I love.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nBezos uses the analogy of Amazon as an acorn that grew into an oak tree.\n\nJason Fried\n\nHmm. I don't think about it as the acorn so much. That's cool, though, especially “A,” “Acorn,” “Amazon.”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThere you go. I wonder if he thought about Acorn as a company?\n\nJason Fried\n\nNo, it was never that. You remember this. You're old enough.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThe directories were in alphabetical order.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nOh, yeah, that's why—\n\nJason Fried\n\nRemember?\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThat's right. Remember, there weren't that many websites, so you could actually list them all.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThat's right, that's why he named it.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nThat's right. I remember reading that.\n\nJason Fried\n\nAnd he almost did, like, “Abracadabra.”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nHard work or something like that?\n\nJason Fried\n\nNo, it's like “Abracadabra” or something like that. Then people thought it was “cadaver,” and they're like—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAh.\n\nJason Fried\n\n—“That's not a good association.”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nFunny. They don't sell cadavers there, do they?\n\nJason Fried\n\nNo.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nNo, they don't. They don't. It's amazing. The Everything Store doesn't sell cadavers.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nOkay. So, I've always thought about our business as an oak tree. Oak trees are very stable. They can withstand a lot of storms. They don't grow very fast. They're actually quite slow-growing, though some are faster than others.\n\nIn the Midwest, where I came from, a bur oak is a very slow-growing tree, but it lasts a long time and can weather a lot of storms. I've always found that to be a very appealing kind of tree to be, versus a cottonwood, which grows really fast and makes a lot of noise. You can hear cottonwoods when it's windy. They make a big mess. Everyone notices them because there's cotton all over the place, and they die in about 75 years or something like that. They come down hard. It's just not as interesting to me.\n\nI don't need to be flashy. I don't need to leave signs all over the place that I've been here. I'm just going to be nice and quiet, build a great business, keep a solid foundation, add a little bit every year so it feels more stable, and weather storms.\n\nOver the years, in the tech world, there's a lot of, “It's a killer. It's a Slack killer. It's a Basecamp killer. It's a whatever killer.” When you've been around for a long time, you see that played over and over and over. There are a lot of things that are supposed to kill something else, but very few of them can withstand and outlive the storms that come. You can be hot for a while, but the hardest thing is just to stay around, to stick around. So people are like, “How do you compete?” Well, we just stay around longer than everybody else.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah. The line I have on this that's repeated over and over again in these biographies is, “You just stay in the game long enough to get lucky.” There's going to be something that happens in year 5, 10, 15, or 20—usually an innovation invented by somebody outside your company that you can take advantage of.\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight. The example of this is Coca-Cola with refrigeration. They didn't invent refrigeration, but it drastically expanded their market.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nTobi's interview with COVID, in a sense. COVID saved Shopify in a lot of ways, right?\n\nJason Fried\n\nHe needed that difficult time period—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\n—to then grow and realize all the things he was doing wrong—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\n—and he realized—\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd people were shopping online more, and all that stuff, too.\n\nJason Fried\n\nWell, he had that huge spike in stock price, which he talked about, and then it going down.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nBut it's when he realized, “Oh, I'm cosplaying.”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nRight, yes.\n\nJason Fried\n\n“I'm a public company CEO, and this is what I do.”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYes.\n\nJason Fried\n\nHe's like, “No! There's still…” I love what he said in the conversation, where he's like, “There's not one right way to do something. There's probably 100.”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI believe that.\n\nJason Fried\n\n“At least 100.”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah. I think the way you did it, if you had to do it again, you'd do it the same way. But there are 100 different ways to do that same thing.\n\nI want to go back to what you just said, though: Something can be hot; it can be a fad. The maxim I have for this is, “Time is the best filter.” It's the only filter I trust for businesses, for ideas, and for books. I usually read a lot of old books, but it works for people, too, because a huge influence on my thinking is Charlie Munger and his whole thing.\n\nIt’s like you need to build a seamless web of deserved trust with high-quality people.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd the only way you know if somebody’s high quality is time.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYep.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIn his and Warren’s case, they knew the same people for decade after decade after decade.\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI’m rereading the book “The Snowball” right now. It’s the 700-page biography of Warren Buffett. The amount of friends that he accumulates in his 20s, 30s, and 40s who are still around when they’re in their 70s and 80s is absolutely remarkable.\n\nFor a business, time carries most of the weight. That’s another maxim I got from Munger, because when you read “Poor Charlie’s Almanack,” his thing is that you should master the big ideas. There’s only a handful of big ideas in all these different disciplines—biology, physics, economics.\n\nJason Fried\n\nRight.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nHe’s like, “And if you just master the big ideas,” he says, “those few big ideas carry most of the freight.”\n\nJason Fried\n\nMm.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nReading that, I was thinking about how he prioritized durability in a business.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYes.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nAnd I was like, “Oh, so time carries most of the weight. You just have to survive,” which goes back to your blubber and having a margin of safety.\n\nJason Fried\n\nBlubber and small units.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThat’s a big part of it, too. This is a bit of an aside, but it’s tied to it, and I think it’s important to talk about: pricing.\n\nWith Basecamp, for example, nobody can pay us more than $299 a month. It doesn’t matter how many users you have. You could be a big enterprise, and $299 a month is the most you can possibly pay us. Our prices go much lower, but that’s the most we allow you to pay us.\n\nNow, many of our competitors will say, “Hey, you want to pay us $50,000 a month? You’ve got 2,000 seats? We’ll take it.” I don’t want their money, because what I want is a static group of customers.\n\nIf you think about static like an old TV—the dots are all equal-sized—you should be able to pick out 10 random customers and lose them. I don’t want to lose customers, but if you could pick out 10 random customers and lose them, I think you have a good business. If you could pick out 100 random customers and lose them and be okay, you have a good business.\n\nWhat you don’t want is a bunch of outlier companies that you cannot afford to lose. You don’t want customers that you cannot afford to lose. By equalizing our pricing and not letting anyone pay us more than anybody else, we create a bunch of small units, which are individual customers. If you take one out, it’s not like Jenga, where the whole thing is going to fall. It doesn’t matter, in a sense, because everyone’s essentially equal, no matter how big you are.\n\nThen we can develop software for the customer base as a whole, and not for a handful of customers that pay us a lot more than everybody else. That’s the enterprise game: getting as many seats as you can and landing these whales. I just don’t find that interesting. I also don’t find it durable.\n\nDurability is about a lot of small things. If someone wants to chip away at some of those, it doesn’t matter because there’s a lot more left. That’s what we were aiming for with durability.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nSo, one thing that we haven’t touched on, which I think is really important—we’ve danced around it a few times, and you’ve mentioned it a few times—is that you are all intuition.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nI want to hear your thoughts on intuition, and I want to hear how you refined your intuition.\n\nJason Fried\n\nIntuition for me is just making decisions that you’re comfortable with. You do want to look around and pay attention to as many things as you can, in a sense. But ultimately, you have to be willing to make a human decision about something, and stick by it and stand behind it.\n\nI think these decisions come from somewhere that you can’t quite define. It’s not like there’s one thing that tips it over. Intuition, to me, is a collection of a lot of things that you can’t quite split apart, which lead you to make a decision.\n\nThat’s how I’m driven. I go by gut; I go by intuition, whether it’s a pricing decision, a product decision, a feature, a new product, a name, or whatever it is. We don’t test things. We don’t do focus groups. We occasionally A/B test for fun, but not because it matters.\n\nI’m not looking at numbers. I’ve never seen a spreadsheet that’s ever made me do anything. I don’t want to make a product decision because a spreadsheet told me to. That’s just a thing, and there are a lot of other things that can tell me to do other things.\n\nI don’t want to value something because it’s a spreadsheet with numbers on it. That’s just a thing, and I’m very careful not to put too much weight into something that purports to be more valuable than some other feeling I have just because it has numbers on it.\n\nOf course, I don’t want to do stupid things. I’m not going to throw $50 million at a Super Bowl ad. I’m not going to do that. Your intuition has limits, too.\n\nEverything we do is based on what we want to do and what we feel. I want to feel into these decisions and go, “I feel good about this. No matter what happens, let’s do it anyway.”\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah, that’s what it is for me. How have you refined it over time?\n\nJason Fried\n\nYou just do things. You make decisions. To me, it’s all about area under the curve in terms of making decisions. The more decisions you make, the more time you have, the more you refine your intuition.\n\nBut you don’t actively refine it. You don’t practice intuition. You just make decisions. The more you make, the more you make, the more it sharpens everything up.\n\nIt takes the edge off, I think, eventually. As you make more and more and more decisions, and you’re tumbling these things around, essentially, you end up with a nice, smooth orb, and it feels really good to have that in your hand. It feels right. That’s kind of where you want to get to.\n\nYou want to have this place where, when you make a decision, you’re like, “This feels like the right decision. I’m not afraid of this decision. I’m excited about this decision. It could go wrong, and I’d be okay with that, too. I just know that this is the decision I want to make right now, and I’m lucky to be in this position where I can make it. No one can tell me I can’t.”\n\nThat’s another part of intuition, because you can have intuition that keeps hitting a ceiling, and someone else says, “No,” and then you don’t get to use it. Intuition has to be used, I think, to really be enjoyed. That requires going back to independence and back to optionality as well.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nJason, one of the coolest things about my job is that I can have somebody like you, whose work I’ve read and who has shaped my thinking over a decade and a half. We’ve become friends, we get to hang out, and then you also get to come on the show and share all the things I love about you with everybody else.\n\nI really appreciate the time today, man. Just fucking awesome.\n\nJason Fried\n\nIt’s been a blast. Thank you so much for having me on.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nYeah, sure.\n\nJason Fried\n\nThanks for doing it.\n\nDavid Senra\n\nIt’s really fun, yeah.\n\nJason Fried\n\nYeah, you bet, man.","tldr_md_alt":"- **Fried 的经营核心是：一家企业真正唯一的竞争对手，是自己的成本。** 竞争对手“爱怎么做就怎么做”，你无法控制；你能控制的是支出和价格，只要“赚得比花得多，我就能继续经营”。低成本也会缩小需求问题——做自己想要的产品，只需要找到“足够多”与你相似的人，而不是整个市场。Senra 的平行案例是：Microsoft 最初30名员工里，有 Bill Gates、他的秘书和28名程序员——“没有赘肉，只有产品”。\n- **37signals 目前约有62人，没有中层管理，功能通常由2人团队完成，利润分成则以现金发放。** COO 和工程经理的试验都被撤回，原因是一个“几乎可以回答所有问题”的问题：以我现在知道的一切，我还会再次雇用这个人吗？公司是 LLC，股权表上只有4个人；每年拿出10%的利润按任职年限分给员工，份额最多累计10年，与职位和头衔无关。2024年，62人中约有20人拿到六位数美元奖金——“没有期权、没有 RSU、没有股票，什么那些破玩意都没有”。\n- **它的资产负债表哲学是“鲸脂”：宽裕的利润率、零外部融资，以及保留所有战略选项。** 从 AWS 搬到自建数据中心，每年能省下大约1,000万美元——“这是我们自己的钱，老兄”——Fried 对硅谷能在“历史上利润率最高的产品——软件”上亏掉数十亿美元感到困惑。在他的叙述里，融资 VC 是一场关于选择变多的幻觉，最终几乎只剩一个结局：要么做成大生意，要么失败——“大多数人直接冲过了本来可以成为一家好企业的规模”。\n- **Basecamp 将价格封顶在299美元/月，正是为了打造耐久性——不要大客户，不玩叠叠乐。** 他希望客户基础保持“静态”：随机失去100个客户也没关系；而不是去玩企业市场，争取每月5万美元、2,000个席位的大单——“你不应该拥有那些你承受不起失去的客户”。在他看来，耐久性“来自很多件小事”。\n- **规划按日推进，最长只看6周——像松鼠，不像曲棍球棒。** 目标是进入轨道并保持运行，做出小型、随时可以丢弃的决策，而不是押注8个月，这会让企业“更具反脆弱性”。对于从不优化定价、从不做 A/B 测试而放弃的桌面收入，他的回答是：“所以呢？……你达到正确的规模，然后不知出于什么原因，你就是无法满足于那里。于是你把力气用得太大、太狠，最后失去了原本所做之事的美好。”\n- **他明确表示，自己不可能再次打造 Basecamp，并把“AI在3年内消灭软SaaS”当作一种负面推演场景。** 第二次创业之所以失败，是因为创始人“既不知道为什么没成功，也不知道为什么成功”；Trader Joe's 创始人 Joe Coulombe 在回忆录结尾写下的悔恨，就是一个警示故事。如果 AI 在3年内终结软SaaS：“很好，我们曾经拥有一段很棒的旅程。”\n- **产品信条是：软件因为没有物理力量反向阻挡，会一路“向下滑”，所以每个版本在根本上都必须更简单。** 他践行“Galápagos”式设计：不盯着竞争对手，而是从 Concept2 划船机、树叶和鸟类，而不是其他软件中寻找灵感；他推崇1963年的 Rolex Daytona 这类早期产品的“纯粹性”，并且个人更喜欢那一版——不能让产品变好的新增功能不是进步，而是衰败。\n- **对消费科技的判断是“伟大的倒退”，而 Bezos 的建议是：投资于不会改变的东西。** 一套全新的出租屋，住进去还要有人带着走一遍，教你怎么开灯；洗碗机则要靠 App 操作。“有史以来最好的界面，就是开关”，如今已像罗马混凝土一样成为失传的技艺。例外是 Nest 和 Tesla 的屏幕。Bezos 的锚点是：10年后，没有人会希望 Amazon 的服务变差、配送变慢或价格变高——“专注于业务中不会改变的事情”。","digest_md_alt":"### 1. 先为自己打造，再找到“足够多”像自己的人\n- Fried 完整讲述了自己的起点：15岁或16岁时，他用 FileMaker Pro 做了一个名为 AudioFile 的数据库，用来记录自己借出去的磁带和 CD；他在档案里放入一个文本文件：“如果你喜欢这个，请寄我20美元。”随后，他在互联网出现之前把文件上传到 AOL，最后收到一个来自德国的航空信封，里面是一张崭新的20美元钞票。“那一刻一切对我来说都连上了……外面可能还有其他和你一样、想要你所想要的东西的人。”\n- 这句话背后的经济学很简单：作为一个没有开支的独立少年，他一年能赚大约2万美元，只需要几千名买家。“如果你的成本很高……你就必须找到很多和你一样的人。但如果你把成本压低……找到的那些人会真正喜欢你做的东西。这就够了。”\n\n### 2. “你唯一的竞争对手是成本”\n- 这句为节目命名的话，拆开来看就是：企业只需做到赚得比花得多。竞争对手“爱怎么做就怎么做。你无法控制他们会推出什么、定价多少……我能控制的是经营企业要花多少钱，以及我的产品卖多少钱。”\n- 关键在于：“这不就是一切的意义吗——活下去？……如果我赚到的钱还不够覆盖制造这些东西的成本，我就没法继续做下去。”Senra 将其与 Founders 体系中的经典人物联系起来：Walton、Jobs、Carnegie、Rockefeller 都痴迷于成本；Microsoft 最初30名员工则是 Gates、他的秘书和28名程序员。\n\n### 3. 企业的问题不是沟通，而是沟通失真\n- 37signals 如今约有62人，Fried 也说过“约63人或62人”；公司规模最高时约80人，在谈到中层管理时，他还曾提到过83人。公司早期曾用4人和12人完成产品。Fried 的判断是：“我不认为企业真正存在沟通问题，它们存在的是沟通失真问题。”层层传话、电话游戏会让事情变形，“参与的人越多，最后做出来的东西反而越差。”\n- 一个功能通常由2个人完成——1名程序员和1名设计师——这“让我们保持诚实，也阻止我们做出2个人做不出来的东西”，最终形成表面积很小的产品：“你能看见整个东西，也能把整个东西握在手里。”\n- 质量能够维持，还有一个结构性原因：企业软件卖给采购方，再由采购方强行让员工使用，“所以所有人都讨厌那些产品”。而在37signals，买家和用户是同一个人。\n\n### 4. 管理试验，只用一个问题就撤回\n- 他们两次尝试设置 COO，每次任期约3年；工程经理则做了大约1年。Fried 说：“他们没问题，都是好人，只是没有足够的工作给他们。”硬凑工作“让人感觉很糟……他们在浪费自己的职业生涯”。在 David、CTO 和真正做事的人之间，“就像一场电话游戏”。\n- 值得照搬的机制是：每名新员工进入第2年时，都会被当成一次重新招聘，决定只看一个问题：“以我现在知道的一切，我还会再次雇用这个人吗？这个问题几乎能回答所有问题……绩效、态度、文化契合度，所有这些。”把同样的问题用于岗位本身——我们还会重新设立这个职位吗？答案是否定的，于是这些职位被取消。\n\n### 5. “软件会一路向下滑”——缺失的物理约束\n- Fried 最有力的设计论点是：一个烫得发热的杯子，或者一个没有把手的杯子，会自行暴露它的糟糕设计，因为物理规律会反向施压。“软件不是这样。软件可以变成任何东西，它具有无限可塑性……它只会无限膨胀，最后越来越糟。软件会一路向下滑。”\n- 对策是每5到6年重新发明一次 Basecamp：1→2 和2→3都是彻底重写，3→4不是，正在进行的4→5也不是。目标是让每个版本在“根本层面上更简单一点”，即便功能数量可能更多。\n- 他之所以觉得这件事有趣，是因为：“坦白说，我人生中最喜欢的事情，就是获得一个洞见……我在做软件时经常撞上这些洞见……它们就是这样来的，来自淋浴和软件。”\n\n### 6. 他不会拿自己的企业换任何人的企业\n- 对于这种看似不一致的选择——经营27年、每年盈利、累计拥有数百万客户、赚到数亿美元——Fried 仍说自己不想经营另一家企业：“我完全不觉得一致性有任何形式的趣味。对我来说，一切都取决于语境。”\n- Senra 追问他的“不羡慕任何人”，Fried 直截了当地回应：“你可以随便挑一个人……那都会是降级。”理由是：“我打造了自己想工作的公司……如果我必须用别人的方式做我的事情，那就像在玩你比我猜。”他补充说，满足于现状“不幸的是，在我的行业里谈得还不够多……增长、增长、增长……连续创业。对我来说很无聊。”\n- 如果卖掉公司，他说自己想合上笔记本电脑，1年不碰电脑，但仍会用手机联系别人；他也不会再创办另一家企业。\n\n### 7. 信封和信——以及“玩创业家游戏”\n- 这期节目的核心比喻是：企业分成信封和信。信封是外壳、品牌、估值和载体；信则是产品。“我是产品派……商业这一面只需要存在，用来承载产品。”他的补充是，信封派也没问题——“你得知道自己是谁。”\n- 他把“玩创业家游戏”定义为：不断启动企业、做 Logo、融资、做估值，“但里面还没有任何真正有实质的东西……然后就变成一场疯狂冲刺，只为在某个估值上退出”。他的结论毫不留情：“把企业当成金融工具，这个想法令我无法接受。实际上，它让我反感。”\n\n### 8. 薄壳、进入轨道，以及“所以呢”的纪律\n- 企业之所以要薄，是因为：“一个物体越庞大，改变方向所需的能量就越多。”厚重的企业会在你、客户和产品之间拉开距离；37signals 则是“一家很薄的企业，配上一整套很厚的产品”。\n- 他反对曲棍球棒式增长图，使用的比喻是一枚进入轨道的火箭：“你必须摆脱重力。但到了某个点，你其实只想待在轨道上并保持运行……你不需要再拼命向前推。”为了增长而增长，得到的固定回答是：“如果你已经很庞大，然后又变成原来的2倍，那又怎样？所以呢？为什么？”\n- 对于承认自己没有优化定价、没有持续做 A/B 测试、因此把收入留在桌面上的问题，他说：“也许有人能进入我的企业，一夜之间把规模翻倍……我愿意接受这就是事实。我的回答会是：‘所以呢？’”他唯一支持的优化，是把产品做得更好，“而不是从某个东西上再多挤出10万美元”。\n\n### 9. 不是 CEO——而是回复200封客户邮件\n- 谈到这个头衔，他说：“首席执行官。到底是哪儿的首席执行官？……昨天我回复了客户发来的200封邮件。有些人会说，CEO这么做是不负责任的……我认为这是你能做的最好的事情。”\n- Senra 提供了一个支持性案例：UPS 创始人 Jim Casey 的高管总是告诉他想听的话，于是他让司机每遇到一辆棕色卡车就停车，直接和司机交谈——“和真正做这件事的人交流”。Fried 的对应做法是：每个注册 Basecamp 的人都会看到一封信，里面有他的真实邮箱地址。“没有 AI，没有助理，中间完全没有任何层级。”\n- 他向往的模式属于 Olivia——一位芝加哥杂货店老板，她知道每一位顾客的名字：“我不知道我们所有客户的名字，这件事其实让我很沮丧……不知怎么，它渗透到我身上，让我感受到他们作为客户的感受。”\n\n### 10. Vinnie's 三明治店与“足够”的美\n- 芝加哥大道上的那家三明治店——Senra 猜测叫 Vinnie's，但 Fried 不确定它是否仍在营业——只要面包卖完就关门，也不张贴营业时间，通常下午2:30左右打烊。Fried 诚实地与这个逻辑拉扯：“当然，他们可以买更多面包……好，那你要在哪里停下来？……你可以看到，这件事没有尽头，一家这样的企业可能吞噬掉你的一切。”他的结论是：“‘足够’本身有一种非常简单的美。”但他也承认，自己只是外部观察者，不了解这家企业的真实处境。\n- 如果把27年的收入压缩到15年内让他选择，他毫不犹豫会选27年：“钱只是这一切的副作用。”他通过 Senra 引用了 Patrick O'Shaughnessy 的话——“做好工作的回报是更多工作”——这正是为什么长期经营胜过快速兑现。\n\n### 11. 像松鼠一样规划：最长6周，小单元，反脆弱\n- 他的比喻是一只穿过田野的松鼠：“大致知道自己想去哪里……它快速穿行，然后停下来四处观察……再修正方向。”在37signals，99%的项目用时不超过6周；退出云端是少数更大的例外。“事情离你越近，你对它知道得越多。”\n- 他对长期规划的嘲讽是：“我一直无法理解那些认为自己今天就能算清未来3年，却害怕明天再去解决明天的人。”\n- 小单元之所以胜出，是因为糟糕的一天24小时后就过去了，而带着各种预案的8个月决策则会“变馊”。“把事情做小、做成很小的单元，随时可以扔掉……你就会变得更具反脆弱性。”会不会错过大型机会？“是的，也许会。所以呢？只要我能活着，继续做我正在做的事……我不需要其他那些大机会。”\n- 当被问到5年后的成功是什么样子时，Fried 的答案是“只是更多这样的事情”；Senra 的回答则是“我不知道”和“我不在乎”。\n\n### 12. Galápagos 产品设计：别看竞争对手，看一片叶子\n- Fried 刻意极少研究竞品：“所有人都在跟随所有人……然后人们出于恐惧做产品。‘他们要发布这个，我必须跟上。’”结果是整个行业里，“某个人做出了一个成功产品，接下来3年的所有产品看起来都和它一模一样”。\n- 他的灵感来源完全在软件之外：建筑、家具、手表、Concept2，以及下午4:45掠过加州山丘的光线；他拒绝从商业角度为此辩护：“为什么所有事情都必须回到商业上？”他给那些翻 Logo 书找灵感的设计师的建议是：“走到户外去……如果你想找到好看的颜色，就去看一只鸟，别看书。”\n- 他将自己描述为一个封闭的小群体，用自己的方式解决问题，像 Galápagos 一样。“有人讨厌我们产品的外观和用法。没关系，我不在乎。喜欢我们所做之事的人已经够多了。”\n\n### 13. Concept2 划船机：完美产品\n- 他凭记忆描述自己最喜欢的产品：售价低于1,000美元——“我觉得它一直以来都低于1,000美元”——配一块黑白 LCD 屏，甚至不是 LED；有5个橡胶按键，他认为可能还有另外2个；使用 C 电池或 D 电池。“不用电、不用插电、不用充电……它只做该做的事，除此之外什么都没有。”他的结论是：“回形针和 Concept2 划船机，这两样东西都很难再改进。”\n- 其中还蕴含着他的方法论：“我看的是产品，不是公司。我看产品，然后说：‘这是个很棒的产品，我敢说这是一家很棒的公司。’”关键在于，几代产品的改进都是功能性的——材料更好、更耐用——“不是为了卖新型号”，这也是他更认同这个品牌的原因。\n\n### 14. HEY 是一封情书，错误则有意保留\n- HEY 的预发布页面是在开发中途写下的，那时他还不知道产品最终会是什么样——“那是产品背后的爱。”他称电子邮件为世界奇迹：不需要平台，任何人都能联系任何人，“和互联网一样美”。在他看来，Apple、Google、Yahoo 和 Microsoft 做电子邮件产品时，根本不在乎电子邮件本身。\n- 他的产品演示又长又未经剪辑：“如果我在第2分钟就搞砸了，我不会说‘我们重新开始’……我们不是躲在某种组织结构后面的企业实体……我们没有董事会。”\n- 他讲述了一个由威斯康星州 Mineral Point 的收藏家告诉他的 Navajo 地毯故事：那些偏离的针脚不被视为错误，而是“某个时间点的痕迹”。如果你在一条路上绊了一跤，“你不能把那次绊倒收回去”。Fried 将其延伸为：“错误是我们强加给自己的概念……这些地毯会因为有一针偏了就变差吗？不会……它们反而更好。”他也限定了自己的批评：不是所有公司，而是很多公司都“害怕一切，害怕说错话……这并不可亲。我认为人们想和人做生意。”\n- 他不太确定地引用了 Christopher Alexander 的一个想法：由本地村落里的居民、而非建筑师建造的房屋，具有某种品质——“完全贴合他们对自己的需求”。\n\n### 15. 想更贴近地面生活的工具制造者\n- 他的自我定位与 Tobi Lütke 一致：“我制造工具，只不过这些工具恰好由软件构成……它是一根杠杆，让你能够完成不用它就无法完成的事情。”他拒绝“科技行业”甚至“创业家”这样的标签。\n- 他喜欢实体事物，是因为：“软件随着时间推移看起来都一样。一座伟大的建筑，一块伟大的砖……砖之所以美，是因为它们变老之后反而更好看。”他收藏石头，强调不是水晶；他还说：“我更愿意躺在地上，而不是飞在空中。”\n- Senra 提到 Constellation Software 的 Mark Leonard 曾说，砌石墙是他做过的最有成就感的工作之一，因为几十年后他还能回去，指着当年亲手做出的东西。Senra 还描述了 Christopher Nolan：他想生活在模拟世界里，不用手机，剧本以实体形式送到手上，再被取回。\n- Fried 重新解释了 Senra 的模拟世界信条：“其实，你说什么并不重要。重要的是，你知道自己是谁……很多人不知道自己喜欢什么。他们喜欢别人喜欢的东西……某种意义上，他们经营的是别人的企业。”他还说：“你不需要选边站。你可以喜欢数字世界，也可以喜欢实体世界。”\n\n### 16. 致幻剂、收音机旋钮，以及年轻 Fried 的心结\n- 那封拒信来自网页设计师 Dave Siegel，他回复 Fried 的奖项投稿：“你很差劲，找份别的日间工作吧。”Fried 说：“我喜欢这句话……我只有在别人轻视我时才会有竞争心。”他说自己在40多岁时才真正找到状态，如今51岁，部分得益于致幻体验。\n- Senra 则以个人经历坚决反驳：他的一个表亲死于海洛因过量，父亲因贩毒入狱——“我从没见过吸食可卡因的人做出什么好决定……我还是不碰毒品。”Fried 并不劝说别人：“我不是来劝你的。”但他把蘑菇描述为“一场洞见的雪崩”。\n- 有两个画面值得保留。第一个是1950年代的汽车收音机：“95.7就是你。致幻剂让我稍微转动旋钮，调到另一个一直存在、只是我听不到的频率。”第二个是他终于把一个3D 拼图转过来：“从背面看，一切简单得多……事物的正面只是表面，背面才是真实。”\n\n### 17. “鲸脂”：脂肪储备、1,000万美元云端迁移，以及六位数现金奖金\n- Fried 说这个词是前一晚才想到的：“我不想经营一家利润率极低、连犯错都犯不起的企业……我们会承担风险，但不会把自己置于风险之中……我宁愿拥有这座农场，也不愿没有它。”他进一步延伸脂肪比喻：6%的体脂很酷，“但长期这样生活并不是好事”。这些“鲸脂”帮助他们挺过了互联网泡沫崩溃、2008年金融危机和 COVID。\n- 对于为什么还要离开 AWS、去省下大约1,000万美元，他的回答是：“因为这是我们自己的钱，老兄。我们没有外部融资，我也不想要任何外部融资。”27年来的营销支出“基本只是四舍五入误差”。他始终无法理解：硅谷企业在“历史上利润率最高的产品——软件”上“烧掉数十亿美元”；他也承认，软件确实存在一些数据成本。“在我看来，这简直极不负责任。”\n- 利润分配机制是：公司为 LLC，股权表上只有4个人；每年拿出10%的利润按任职年限而非资历分给员工，份额按月累积，最多累计10年。因此，一名任职10年、年薪约9万至10万美元的客服人员，和一名任职10年的首席工程师拿到的利润分成相同。2024年，62人中约有20人拿到六位数奖金；Fried 提到，2025年的账目尚未结清。相比之下，竞争对手在一张一路向下的股价图上承诺股票：“我替那些人感到难过，因为他们被承诺了一些永远、永远不可能拿到的东西。”\n\n### 18. 不做复盘，不设目标——因为你其实不知道它为什么成功\n- Fried 拒绝复盘：“回头看，只是你根据自己对某件事的记忆讲出来的一个故事，而且它很可能不是真的。”发布后的分析会制造虚假的确定性：“你会找到一些自己相信的原因，但如果重来一次，结果可能会不同……如果你想找到确定性，你一定能找到，因为你会说服自己相信它。我认为这非常危险。”学习发生在向前的过程中：“你通过行动学习。”\n- Senra 读出 Rick Rubin 关于自我批评的回答：“如果它还能变得更好，那它就还没完成……没有什么可批评的。它几乎就像一篇日记。”Fried 表示认同：“我看事情正是这样。”在37signals，这进一步意味着没有收入、销售或用户目标。“目标不应该迫使我把工作做得更好……产品本身就是衡量标准。”Senra 借 Jobs 总结成功：“我做出了令自己骄傲的东西吗？”Fried 的版本是：“我还想再做一次吗？……如果想，它就是成功的。”\n\n### 19. “我绝不可能再做一次”——Trader Joe's、Bob Dylan 与 AI 场景\n- Fried 断言自己无法重建 Basecamp：“我觉得自己不够好，无法再次做成以前做过的事。我没有那种耐力……我会有好奇心，但我知道好奇心不足以支撑我。”Senra 讲了一个警示故事：Joe Coulombe 因恐惧卖掉 Trader Joe's，之后花了几十年做投资和咨询，并在自传结尾写道：“我没有忠于自己。我后悔卖掉它。”这本书出版的同一周，他去世了。\n- 通过一段 Fried 不太确定、据说是 Bob Dylan 接受 Morley Safer 采访时谈到“16 Minutes”的话，他给出了更成熟的替代方案：“我过去能够做到……我知道自己不可能再做一次，但我现在可以做其他事情。”如果你的身份是“创业家”，你就会被迫做一部自己很可能厌恶的续集。\n- 他和 David 会刻意做负面推演：“如果这一切彻底改变整个该死的行业格局，软SaaS在3年后就死了呢？我们的答案是：‘很好，我们曾经拥有一段很棒的旅程。’”那次蘑菇体验还留下了一个收尾：他请向导重新播放第一次体验时的歌曲，却什么也没得到，最后大笑：“你不可能两次拥有同样的体验……那件事发生在过去，而现在是现在。”他如今也把这套逻辑用在11岁和7岁的孩子身上：好好享受当下；一旦他12岁，他就已经12岁了。\n\n### 20. 选择权：VC 资金几乎封死所有退路，统一定价则消灭大客户\n- 独立的核心是盈利：“没人能告诉我们该做什么。我们实际上觉得自己有义务去做那些没人会允许我们做的事……‘没人会允许我们这么做，那我们就做！’”没有哪家干洗店会去融资 VC，但在他的行业里，一旦融资，“几乎所有可能的退出路径都被切断了，因为现在你必须成为一家大企业，否则就失败……大多数人直接冲过了本来可以成为一家好企业的规模，而对别人来说那已经不够好了。”他保留的选项包括上市、融资、卖给私募股权、辞职——“我不想这么做。但对我来说，选择权本身就是黄金。”\n- 定价上的对应做法是：Basecamp 无论席位数量多少，都将价格封顶在299美元/月，拒绝每月5万美元、2,000个席位的企业软件游戏。他希望客户像电视雪花一样分布，都是大小相近的点：“你应该可以随便挑出100个客户，失去他们也没关系……你不想要一堆自己承受不起失去的离群企业。”不玩叠叠乐，也不为少数大客户，而是为整个客户基础开发软件。\n\n### 21. 纯粹、伟大的倒退，以及 Bezos 关于不会改变的事\n- 对那篇走红的手表帖子，Fried 更喜欢1963年的 Rolex Daytona，而不是后来的版本，“因为它是这个概念最纯粹的形式……之后的一切叠加，都是因为他们需要卖更多东西”。Senra 当场给出一句总结，Fried 立刻接受：“你在往上加东西，但没有让它变得更好。”这也呼应了 Jimmy Iovine 对年轻 Rick Rubin 说的话：“哦，我真希望自己还能做出那么简单的东西。”Rubin 的残酷删减标准是：只有当第6首歌能让整张专辑变得更好时，才把它加进去。Porsche 911 则提供了证明：一辆在太平洋海岸公路上烧毁的车，仍然一眼就能认出来——“事实上，那是一辆997。”\n- 这场吐槽始于他为父母租了一套全新的房子：洗碗机第一次使用前要先注册 App；反应迟钝的触屏恒温器让人分不清当前温度和目标温度；电视变成了“你现在已经不是打开电视，而是启动电视”；就连开灯也要有人正式带你走一遍。“这不是由真正使用该产品的人做出来的产品。”他称之为“伟大的倒退”。例外包括 Nest——基于最初 Honeywell/Dreyfuss 圆形旋钮设计的产品——以及 Tesla “出色”的屏幕；至于其他汽车厂商，则正在退回实体按键。\n- 开关是失传的技术：“有史以来最好的界面，就是开关……有一天它会被重新发现。”这就像罗马混凝土，一门被这个行业遗忘的技艺。Fried 第一次见到 Jeff Bezos 时，对方给出的战略锚点是：“专注于我们业务中不会改变的事情。”Fried 形容 Bezos 像一个持有公司部分股权的合伙人。10年后，没有人会希望 Amazon 的客户服务更差、配送更慢或价格更高。“人很容易看不见这些东西，因为它们可能变得无聊。”\n\n### 22. 做一棵橡树：时间是过滤器，直觉是引擎\n- 关于耐久性的比喻是：37signals 像一棵缓慢生长的 bur oak，而不是生长快、动静大又杂乱的 cottonwood；Fried 说后者大约“75年左右”就会死去。每个时代都会出现一个“Basecamp 杀手”：“很少有几个能经受并活过风暴……人们会问，‘你们怎么竞争？’我们的办法就是比所有人活得更久。”Senra 还补充了两句格言：“你只要在牌桌上待得足够久，就会走运”，对应 Coca-Cola 遇上冰箱、Shopify 遇上 COVID；以及通过 Munger 的无缝信任网络提出的“时间是最好的过滤器”。\n- 关于直觉，他的决策系统是不做焦点小组，也不把测试当成真正重要的东西：“我从没见过一张电子表格能让我去做什么……我非常谨慎，不会仅仅因为某种感觉上面有数字，就给它过多权重，仿佛它比我的另一种感觉更有价值。”不断做更多决策，最终会形成“曲线下面的面积”：它们逐渐“滚成一颗漂亮、光滑的球”。但直觉“必须被使用……这样才能真正享受它”，这又回到了独立性。\n- Senra 最后反驳 Fried 所说的“我不努力工作”：按他计算，27年里每周工作40小时，大约是在同一件事上投入54,000小时，几乎没人做到过。Fried 的耸肩，就是这套理念的缩影：“我只是在一块块砌砖。我只是不断做下去……然后它就一点点累积起来了。”","shows":{"name":"David Senra","hosts":"David Senra"}}